Outside Dogs
Question:
are ‘your’ dogs OUTSIDE Dogs jerry?
Response:
Obviously YOUR dogs are outside dogs. Just checking on those who responded in such a negative way. My bet was that the ire came from defensiveness. Seems like my ‘unscientific’ study has proven true. Those the most pissed off at this post are the very ones that insist that ‘their’ dogs are OUTSIDE DOGS.
Response:
><slap> >Oh, shaddap, moron.
When you don’t have an intelligent reply, revert to childishness. The quote is an excellent example. Dorothy, owned by C.C., a very spoiled dachshund
Response:
That was good!
Response:
You have no idea how many times I would have loved to have something like this for those who insist they have an ‘outside dog’ (and say it with such determination you just KNOW there is no changing their minds). Sadly, I just returned from a trip to N.Calif. and visited my own sister. She has THREE ‘outside’ dogs. To look in their eyes and to see the life that they had actually ruined my visit. I left feeling so ashamed of my sister’s lack of compassion that I doubt I will be able to let the issue be put to rest…EVER. I guess ya can’t fix the ills of the world, but ‘to see wrong and not try to right it’ is a place we can all begin to make changes. Thanks for sharing this ‘jewel’.
Response:
>To my mind confining a dog in the house is cruel and against its nature. >During the winter such dogs fail to develop a winter coat, yet are sent >out into the cold and inclement weather to relieve themselves. They get >little or no exercise which leads to flaccid weak muscles, including the >heart. If a dog owner is either to lazy, or to house bound to spend time >outside with their dog(s), then I suppose the dog must imprisoned in the >house. However an honest evaluation of that would be, that it is for >the benefit of the "owner" not the dog.
Heh. I’ve got two dogs, who pretty much go inside or outside at their own request. Where do they spend most of their time? Inside. By their own choice. The GSD definitely develops a winter coat (if you doubt me, you’re welcome to come over and look under my couch, which is where a tiny fraction of it (approximately the size and weight of a full-grown miniature poodle) presently resides, since I haven’t vacuumed in, oh, about forty-eight hours). Probably not as heavy as a full-outdoors dog would get, but more than sufficient for the climate and time she spends outdoors. The greyhound doesn’t noticeably, but that’s kind of a moot point for the breed. I wouldn’t be too hasty in assuming that the Great Indoors is a crime against nature. — Karen J. Cravens
Response:
> I’ve know many dogs who are properly handled, trained, and > socialized who enjoy living fulfilling lives outdoors for a variety > of reasons.
This article was not, IMO, addressing the ;working" dog. I have a good friend who has a mid sized sheep farm. She has BCs who live in outbuildings and spend their days in the pasture wiht her, or hanging out around hte barn with folks working there, and 2 flock guardians who live outdoors, (or int eh barn) with the sheep 24/7. That is their job and they are fine.The key is, they HVE a job. The average pet woner wiht an outdoor dog does not spend most of their time outdoors and the dog is usually underchallenged and bored. They dig, chew and howl.I get calls form poeple wiht these dogs frequently. > successfully live outdoors because family members, even their owners > who handle and train them, have allergies and cannot live indoors > with their dogs.
I have a problem wiht this. A family pet is a family pet. If it CAN’T be part of the family, choose another,. Life isn’t always fair. > their puppies. You think our kennel owners usually keep all their > dogs running loose throught their homes and gardens? HEEL NO! They > crate and lock up all but one or two housepets, and the rest get the > same treatment as any other kennel or show or field dog. > So let’s cut the selfrighteous crap and call a spade a spade, huh?
If by "kennel owners" you mean big time show poeple, breeders and trainers, I agree and don’t approve of that either. I don’t care how many titles someone has, dogs are pack animals and need companionship and to interact with poeple or other animals. I hate it when breeders talk about their dogs getting "housetime" on a rotating basis! Lisa Baird Dublin, Ohio Haleakala Portuguese Water Dogs Buckeye Region Agility Group, Inc. PAWZitive Beginnings Dog Training, LLC
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Uhm, No I didn’t, but it still is a pile of BS. His assumption seems to be > that those of us who have "Outside Dogs" never go outside, and only have the > dogs there to guard against intruders. > I spend most of my day outside with my dogs, and one or the other of them > always goes shopping with me whenever I go. They sleep on a covered deck > right outside my bedroom door. > They are however there to guard. Not against two legged critters, I’ll take > care of those, but rather against the four legged predators that live in > these > mountains. With two large GSD’s patrolling my property, my Chickens, Geese, > Goats, and even my two cats are safe from the coyotes, fox, and mountain > lions > which prowl the night. One of neighbors who doesn’t have "outside dogs" > periodically loses stock to those critters. The deer don’t even bother my > vegetable garden. >There *are* certain types of dogs that are meant for guarding stock, and these >dogs often live outside *with* the stock they guard. The article on >keeping dogs >in the house was meant for the 99% of the people who have "companion" >dogs and >*not* livestock working dogs… I think most reasonably intelligent >people >understand that…
My dogs are companion dogs who also guard stock. The thrust of the article was toward the ineffectiveness of the dog to guard it’s owner if left outside. Unless intensively trained for protection, and constantly practiced, most reasonably intelligent people understand that a dog should never be relied on for protection. They are a good early warning device at best. That’s why God invented the 45 auto. To my mind confining a dog in the house is cruel and against its nature. During the winter such dogs fail to develop a winter coat, yet are sent out into the cold and inclement weather to relieve themselves. They get little or no exercise which leads to flaccid weak muscles, including the heart. If a dog owner is either to lazy, or to house bound to spend time outside with their dog(s), then I suppose the dog must imprisoned in the house. However an honest evaluation of that would be, that it is for the benefit of the "owner" not the dog. Jerry
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Your particular situation is not what’s being addressed in this >article. There are exceptions to everything, and this is one. Working >’farm’ dogs are one thing, but what I assume this article is >addressing is ‘yard dogs’ that live in small backyards in cities and >suburbs everywhere. I live in the suburbs, and my dog and I encounter >many many of these yard dogs every single day. They’re lonely, angry, >and frustrated, and their primary hobby seems to be trying to get out. >I’m also familiar with them from my adventures in trying to get to >sleep at night. These dogs howl and cry and bark all night long, in >all weather. I can only assume that their owners have hermetically >sealed houses to keep them from having to listen to this. These are >not healthy, working outdoor dogs like yours. These dogs are abandoned >in their own backyards. >My dogs freely roam and play on the completely fenced three acres which >surround my house. Does anyone really think they would be better off as a >couple of couch potato, out of shape, "house dogs"? Give me a break! >Wow. My couch potato, out of shape ‘house dog’ walks for at least a >couple of miles a day, has at least weekly trips to the off-leash dog >park where he swims, runs around and roughhouses for hours, and enjoys >several daily wrestling matches with us. He’s a 70# American Bulldog, >but he can outrun collies and shepherds, and jump like a ten pound >terrier. If he’s out of shape, well, I’d rather just leave it that >way. > Imprison your dogs in the house if you must, but don’t criticize those of us >who know better. >IMPRISON? In my experience, house dogs are not actually confined to >their houses against their will. They’re just given the choice, and >most of them choose to live inside. Personally, I leave my side door >wide open whenever possible, and let my dog come and go. My dog is a >member of my family, and as long as he’s well behaved, I’ll let him >make his own decisions about where he goes and what he does. For the >most part, though, he decides to be with me. I do freelance work, so >he sits in my office with me for much of the day, and serves as a >reminder to me to get out of the house every now and again. He’s not >some wheezing out of shape blob dog. >I think it’s just a little funny that you jump on this article for >being judgemental, then denigrate those of us whose lifestyles are >different from yours. I like to see my logical inconsistencies >separated by more than one post, usually. >To reiterate: Sheesh.
Sheesh yerself. I was responding to the pompous blanket conclusion that declared "An outdoor dog has an address, not a home". As for denigrating your lifestyle, that wasn’t my intent, but I find it equally as funny that you accept the denigration of many of us who have outdoor dogs. (hypocrisy?) I doubt you think the majority of "indoor dog owners" exercise their dogs as you do. Yet you so blindly defend the concept that the only well treated dog is an indoor dog. I suspect that as many indoor dogs as outdoor dogs are being neglected. Jerry
Response:
Hello Jerry,
>> Dennis, >> You are a pompous, self-righteous idiot. Who the hell are you to >> lecture the rest of us? When you gather some experience >> outside of academia maybe I’ll listen to you. Until then keep >> your naive inexperienced advice to yourself. >Uhm, do you realize that you are ranting at a published article that >was reposted here?
What’s the difference unless he’s expecting the good Dr. to respond. I don’t suppose that’s out of the question if someone invited him to address our little Gang Of Thugs. > Uhm, No I didn’t, but it still is a pile of BS.
I agree with most of what our good Dr. recommends, he’s got a very good view of handling and training dogs, from the little I’ve read of his approach. > His assumption seems to be that those of us who have "Outside > Dogs" never go outside, and only have the dogs there to guard > against intruders.
Yes, I agree with you 100% there. Some of the best loved, handled, trained, and maintained dogs are working dogs responsible for propery at nite and their owner/trainers during the day on their jobs. These dogs love their jobs and their lifestyles. > I spend most of my day outside with my dogs, and one or the other > of them always goes shopping with me whenever I go. They sleep > on a covered deck right outside my bedroom door.
But our experts here would prefer you keep your dogs locked in a box inside where he can be close to his owner, but not on the bed because the dog might begin to think he’s dominant, and take their nice little dogs to obedience class and jerk and choke and shock and twist and pinch their ears and toes and testicles and beat their dogs in the face with sticks and tie retriever dogs to a tree and beat them for not being able to retrieve an article throw out of their reach to "MAKE THEM REALLY DIG IN." You think I’m B.S.’n you? I’ll quote the articles below, for you edification. That’s the kind of folks who tell YOU you’re a Thug for working your dogs properly as Nature intended. > They are however there to guard. Not against two legged critters, > I’ll take care of those, but rather against the four legged predators > that live in these mountains. With two large GSD’s patrolling my > property, my Chickens, Geese, Goats, and even my two cats are > safe from the coyotes, fox, and mountain lions which prowl the > night.
Sounds like you’ve got some nice pups there, able to discriminate between livestock and varmints. They didn’t pick that up off the ground, did they, Jerry? > One of neighbors who doesn’t have "outside dogs" periodically > loses stock to those critters. The deer don’t even bother my > vegetable garden.
Right. As it should be. > My dogs freely roam and play on the completely fenced three acres > which surround my house.
I presume you don’t have a six foot chain link fence keeping your dogs in. I’d also presume it would be no mean feat for your dogs to just take a hike over or under or through the fence and leave you sitting there high and dry, huh? But you’d stake your life that ain’t in the cards, because your dogs love and respect you and understand their occupational specialty. Right? > Does anyone really think they would be better off as a couple of > couch potato, out of shape, "house dogs"? Give me a break!
Sounds to me like they’re doing exactly as you need and as they like. > Imprison your dogs in the house if you must, but don’t criticize > those of us who know better.
Exactly, Jerry. Yet our critics would beat and shock and choke their dogs to train them…as long as they sleep indoors inside their little crate at nite, where they’ll be nice and safe because they’re untrustworthy because they’re untrained because they spend fifteen to twenty hours a day locked in a crate because our "experts" don’t know HOWE to handle and train a dog without locking them up and choking and shocking and beating them. Outdoors doesn’t mean abused or neglected. > Jerry (The other Jerry.)
And trained and shown doesn’t necessarily mean properly handled and trained, and not abused: "Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens, But You’ll Get Over It." mike duforth, author: "Courteous Canine." Read about our dog lovers methods for training a Retriever dog to retrieve. What do you suppose they got a capital R in front of their name for? (it’s at the bottom) http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force2.html??? Here’s the twisting and pinching part: What is Force Fetching All About? by Cindy Tittle Moore Copyright 1997,1998 by the author; all rights reserved. INTRODUCTION Force fetching refers to a training program whereby the dog is taught that he has no choice about going out and picking up something that you tell him to. Because of the many negative connotations (and inherent imprecision) of the term "force fetch," I generally prefer the term "conditioned retrieve." The need to impose a conditioned retrieve unrelated to the dog’s desire to retrieve. While you can condition a dog with no retrieving instinct whatsoever to retrieve, this training process is really all about teaching the dog to perform the retrieve under control. We all know of enthusiastic retrievers who bounce out to get the thrown object … and then play tag with it. Or drop it at your feet. Or race past you on the way back. Or, go out to pick it up and then refuse because it’s not his favorite toy. Or you want him to pick up something that is already laying on the ground and he’s not interested because the thrill of the "flight and chase" was not there. Or perhaps you’re asking him to pick up something that he’d really rather not put in his mouth. What do you do about these situations? Teaching the conditioned retrieve is one way to deal with these problems. Remember, the "traditional" part of the conditioned retrieve, ear pinching, is perhaps one third of the overall training program that allows a dog to reach this point of reliable non-refusal. The technique we use here is avoidance. In order to successfully, with the least amount of stress, use this technique, the means of escape must be taught first. In teaching something via avoidance, the dog learns that a specific behavior controls the stimulus he wishes to escape. That behavior is taught first so that it is a comfortable and well understood behavior by the time we bring pressure to bear. "Force fetching" was originally developed in the 19th century by Pointer folks, who were dealing with dogs with little to no retrieving instinct but who wanted to expand the utility of their dogs in the field. The process (which actually started with the toe hitch) has been refined in successive decades. Its application to retrievers is not because the dogs refuse to retrieve but the handler needs to gain control over the dog to meet the demands of a day of hunting or the requirements of a hunt test or field trial. The dog must be thoroughly trained to accept directions for a blind retrieve, which differs significantly from a marked fall in which the dog knows that there is a bird to retrieve. In the blind, the dog has only your say-so that there is in fact something to retrieve. In my personal opinion, one of the best overviews of the conditioned retrieve can be found in James Spencer’s Training Retrievers for the Field and Marshes. I follow his outline rather closely. Another excellent and more recent resource is the Tritronics Retrieving Manual Retriever Training by Jim and Phyllis Dobbs and Alice Woodyard, which despite its association with the Tritronics electronic collars has many excellent descriptions of training techniques that do not use the collar, including an overview of what they also term the "conditioned retrieve." (This is not a promotion or condemnation of electronic collars; merely a note that the Retriever Training book is useful for the person without an electronic collar as well.) Caveat There are, however, many variations on this theme and it’s hard to say if any are better or worse than others. Certainly there are individuals who misapply these methods, as there are individuals who will abuse any technique. Much of the success in conditioning a retrieve is very dependent on the trainer’s timing and access to experienced help. In other words, do not try to do this with your dogs unless you have someone experienced in this technique to help you out in person. Other notes There is a groundswell of interest in "non forced" techniques for the conditioned retrieve. I cannot say as to how well any of these work, as I have not used any of these techniques as the sole means of finishing a conditioned retrieve on any of my dogs. I have, however, had a good deal of success applying some of these techniques to puppies before teething and in beginning phases. I do encourage you to go out and investigate these methods if you are interested, but do note that my personal opinion is that at some time, corrections are required to teach the dog he has no option but to do what he’s asked. This is a whole philosphical area of dog training that I am not prepared to get into in this article. I do not say that my methods are the only way, I encourage you to read and investigate more if you wish. I am simply attempting to answer questions about a specific methodology and hopefully to dispell some of the mythology surrounding it. Finally The below described program is intended for the dog who is at least 6, preferably 9 months old. You want to be past the irritating and distracting teething stage so that your dog is not sidetracked in the process. THE HOLD Anyhow, the first part of a … read more »
Response:
Hello Lisa,
> EXACTLY, but that won’t change your pals over here on rpdb. > They believe keeping an outside dog is abuse, and shocking and > jerking and choking and twisting and pinching dogs’ ears and > toes and testicles and beating dogs with sticks is APPROPRIATE, > and killing > Jerry, he’s responding to MY note, and I challenge you to find a > single post where I’ve ever recommended ANY of the things you > describe. I have dogs that are wonderful family pets, do agility, > herding and oebdience with positive training methods.
Right. I didn’t mean to suggest you do or did condone the REAL abuses in this industry: "Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens, But You’ll Get Over It." mike duforth, author: "Courteous Canine." Read about our dog lover amy dahls’ methods for training a Retriever dog to retrieve. What do you suppose they got a capital R in front of their name for? (it’s at the bottom) http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force2.html??? Here’s the twisting and pinching part: What is Force Fetching All About? by Cindy Tittle Moore Copyright 1997,1998 by the author; all rights reserved. INTRODUCTION Force fetching refers to a training program whereby the dog is taught that he has no choice about going out and picking up something that you tell him to. Because of the many negative connotations (and inherent imprecision) of the term "force fetch," I generally prefer the term "conditioned retrieve." The need to impose a conditioned retrieve unrelated to the dog’s desire to retrieve. While you can condition a dog with no retrieving instinct whatsoever to retrieve, this training process is really all about teaching the dog to perform the retrieve under control. We all know of enthusiastic retrievers who bounce out to get the thrown object … and then play tag with it. Or drop it at your feet. Or race past you on the way back. Or, go out to pick it up and then refuse because it’s not his favorite toy. Or you want him to pick up something that is already laying on the ground and he’s not interested because the thrill of the "flight and chase" was not there. Or perhaps you’re asking him to pick up something that he’d really rather not put in his mouth. What do you do about these situations? Teaching the conditioned retrieve is one way to deal with these problems. Remember, the "traditional" part of the conditioned retrieve, ear pinching, is perhaps one third of the overall training program that allows a dog to reach this point of reliable non-refusal. The technique we use here is avoidance. In order to successfully, with the least amount of stress, use this technique, the means of escape must be taught first. In teaching something via avoidance, the dog learns that a specific behavior controls the stimulus he wishes to escape. That behavior is taught first so that it is a comfortable and well understood behavior by the time we bring pressure to bear. "Force fetching" was originally developed in the 19th century by Pointer folks, who were dealing with dogs with little to no retrieving instinct but who wanted to expand the utility of their dogs in the field. The process (which actually started with the toe hitch) has been refined in successive decades. Its application to retrievers is not because the dogs refuse to retrieve but the handler needs to gain control over the dog to meet the demands of a day of hunting or the requirements of a hunt test or field trial. The dog must be thoroughly trained to accept directions for a blind retrieve, which differs significantly from a marked fall in which the dog knows that there is a bird to retrieve. In the blind, the dog has only your say-so that there is in fact something to retrieve. In my personal opinion, one of the best overviews of the conditioned retrieve can be found in James Spencer’s Training Retrievers for the Field and Marshes. I follow his outline rather closely. Another excellent and more recent resource is the Tritronics Retrieving Manual Retriever Training by Jim and Phyllis Dobbs and Alice Woodyard, which despite its association with the Tritronics electronic collars has many excellent descriptions of training techniques that do not use the collar, including an overview of what they also term the "conditioned retrieve." (This is not a promotion or condemnation of electronic collars; merely a note that the Retriever Training book is useful for the person without an electronic collar as well.) Caveat There are, however, many variations on this theme and it’s hard to say if any are better or worse than others. Certainly there are individuals who misapply these methods, as there are individuals who will abuse any technique. Much of the success in conditioning a retrieve is very dependent on the trainer’s timing and access to experienced help. In other words, do not try to do this with your dogs unless you have someone experienced in this technique to help you out in person. Other notes There is a groundswell of interest in "non forced" techniques for the conditioned retrieve. I cannot say as to how well any of these work, as I have not used any of these techniques as the sole means of finishing a conditioned retrieve on any of my dogs. I have, however, had a good deal of success applying some of these techniques to puppies before teething and in beginning phases. I do encourage you to go out and investigate these methods if you are interested, but do note that my personal opinion is that at some time, corrections are required to teach the dog he has no option but to do what he’s asked. This is a whole philosphical area of dog training that I am not prepared to get into in this article. I do not say that my methods are the only way, I encourage you to read and investigate more if you wish. I am simply attempting to answer questions about a specific methodology and hopefully to dispell some of the mythology surrounding it. Finally The below described program is intended for the dog who is at least 6, preferably 9 months old. You want to be past the irritating and distracting teething stage so that your dog is not sidetracked in the process. THE HOLD Anyhow, the first part of a conditioned retrieve is teaching him to HOLD. There really are two separate concepts going on in retrieving an object. One is GOING OUT AND PICKING IT UP. The other concept is KEEPING IT IN THE MOUTH. So, teach your dog to hold first. This is actually taught quite conventionally. You need to start with a dog that will sit and walk nicely alongside first. The dog does not have to know hoiw to heel, but it helps. The dog should be easily controllable by you. The dog should be well past the new teeth stage (I’d say past 9 months of age in Labradors, though many people will begin forcing at 6 months). Know how to pry your dog’s mouth open. Put your hand on the muzzle, with your thumb on one side and the rest of your fingers on the other, with the pinkie finger closest to the eyes. Push the dog’s lips in forcing his mouth to open. You can train your dog to be responsive to this: pop a treat in his mouth when you do this, and he will learn not to fight too much when you handle his muzzle. If you need to, use your other hand to pull his lower jaw down a little, then pop in the treat. You can easily train him to open his mouth with your hand on the muzzle this way. I like to use a plain obedience type wooden dumbbell. You can use a 1" by 1′ dowel of wood as well, but I recommend that you use something that is easy to scoop off the floor at some point. Most people recommend that you not use any toys or bumpers or anything that you will be sorry to see him hate later. Though I must point out that I use the obedience dumbbell and do not see resentment to the dumbbell later. But bumpers can be awkward to handle particularly when first picking off the floor, so I would not use them in training. Put a leash and collar on him and you are ready to go. First exercise: With your dog sitting and under control, open up his mouth, say HOLD and pop the dumbbell in, hold his mouth closed for one second, praise him, say GIVE and pop the dumbbell out. You are not going to let him fail at this stage. You are going to do this smoothly and quickly enough that he doesn’t have a chance to do much of anything, but that the praise does register. You will do this 5-10 times then quit. (Most of your force fetching sessions will be less than 5 minutes long.) Ideally do this twice a day, morning and night, but definitely do this daily. Do it just before you feed him. Gradually lengthen the amount of time you hold his mouth shut. Remember, you are not giving him a chance to do anything but hold it, because you are actively holding his mouth shut right now. If he manages to spit it out (it can seem that you need a third or fourth hand in this process), just say NO quietly and pop it back in. If he spits it out a lot despite your efforts, you need to either shorten things up so he doesn’t have a chance to do this, or recruit someone to help you. Here’s the important part. DO NOT STINT ON PRAISE. Tell him what a good boy (or girl) he is. Do not let up. Even if he’s fighting you, praise him. Stop the praise the moment the dumbbell is out of his mouth. You are not doing this right unless your significant other and/or neighbors think you are stark raving nuts. A word on fighting you. One of the objectives in this training exercise is control. If he’s fighting you, this is what the collar and leash are for. If he flops down, pull him back up into a sitting position. Keep him sitting. If he moves his head away from you, move it back. If he tosses his head around, hold his muzzle or collar to keep his head still. Visualize exactly how you want him positioned … read more »
Response:
> OUTSIDE DOGS > <slap> > Oh, shaddap, moron.
Well now that’s the most intelligent response to a post I think I’ve ever seen on Usenet. If you have a problem with the content of the post, how about educating the rest of us as to why you think its wrong and convincing us that another way is better. Name-calling is child’s play and tells me that you really can’t refute the article. — Tara O. Amie & Summer: http://www.geocities.com/tara29401/index.html alt.tv.gilmore-girls FAQ: http://www.geocities.com/tara29401/alt.tv.gilmore-girls_faq.htm
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Dennis, >> You are a pompous, self-righteous idiot. Who the hell are you to lecture the >> rest of us? When you gather some experience outside of academia maybe I’ll >> listen to you. Until then keep your naive inexperienced advice to yourself. >Uhm, do you realize that you are ranting at a published article that >was reposted here? > Uhm, No I didn’t, but it still is a pile of BS. His assumption seems to be > that those of us who have "Outside Dogs" never go outside, and only have the > dogs there to guard against intruders. > I spend most of my day outside with my dogs, and one or the other of them > always goes shopping with me whenever I go. They sleep on a covered deck > right outside my bedroom door. > They are however there to guard. Not against two legged critters, I’ll take > care of those, but rather against the four legged predators that live in these > mountains. With two large GSD’s patrolling my property, my Chickens, Geese, > Goats, and even my two cats are safe from the coyotes, fox, and mountain lions > which prowl the night. One of neighbors who doesn’t have "outside dogs" > periodically loses stock to those critters. The deer don’t even bother my > vegetable garden.
There *are* certain types of dogs that are meant for guarding stock, and these dogs often live outside *with* the stock they guard. The article on keeping dogs in the house was meant for the 99% of the people who have "companion" dogs and *not* livestock working dogs… I think most reasonably intelligent people understand that… —
Response:
Rhy? Rhy from ATW? Maryann J. (Mokosh)
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Bullshit. We built our dogs a house damn near as nice as our own, they get > plenty of attention, and they love their big yard. They aren’t suffering > one bit. This is merely so much knee jerk hysteria from nature phobic > ninnies who want to elevate their sense of self righteousness by > proseletyzing their ianity to others. Peeeeeyew. > > rest of us? When you gather some experience outside of academia maybe > I’ll > > listen to you. Until then keep your naive inexperienced advice to > yourself. > Okay, real life experience having worked as a groomer, vat assistance and > dog trainer (public > classes) and been the neighborhood contact for any doggie questions for 15 > years… the article > is right on the mark. > — > Lisa Baird > Dublin, Ohio > Haleakala Portuguese Water Dogs > Buckeye Region Agility Group, Inc. > PAWZitive Beginnings Dog Training, LLC
Response:
> EXACTLY, but that won’t change your pals over here on rpdb. They > believe keeping an outside dog is abuse, and shocking and jerking > and choking and twisting and pinching dogs’ ears and toes and > testicles and beating dogs with sticks is APPROPRIATE, and killing
Jerry, he’s responding to MY note, and I challenge you to find a single post where I’ve ever recommended ANY of the things you describe. I have dogs that are wonderful family pets, do agility, herding and oebdience with positive training methods. — Lisa Baird Dublin, Ohio Haleakala Portuguese Water Dogs Buckeye Region Agility Group, Inc. PAWZitive Beginnings Dog Training, LLC
Response:
> one bit. This is merely so much knee jerk hysteria from nature > phobic ninnies who want to elevate their sense of self > righteousness by proseletyzing their ianity to others.
Peeeeeyew. > SO all of the problems the rest of us see for "outside dogs" is a > hallucination? > Lisa Baird > Dublin, Ohio > Haleakala Portuguese Water Dogs > Buckeye Region Agility Group, Inc. > PAWZitive Beginnings Dog Training, LLC
Hello Lisa, I’ve know many dogs who are properly handled, trained, and socialized who enjoy living fulfilling lives outdoors for a variety of reasons. Some of these dogs live outdoors at nite because they work to protect their property, and come indoors when they are on duty behind the cash register during the day. Other dogs successfully live outdoors because family members, even their owners who handle and train them, have allergies and cannot live indoors with their dogs. Other dogs who live outdoors are our competetive sled dog owners. Their dogs must live outdoors to be conditioned to the cold they need to endure to work in. Same applies to our field dog breeders and competitors. Other outdoor dogs are the multitudes owned and bred by our experts who train and show their dogs and sell their puppies. You think our kennel owners usually keep all their dogs running loose throught their homes and gardens? HEEL NO! They crate and lock up all but one or two housepets, and the rest get the same treatment as any other kennel or show or field dog. So let’s cut the selfrighteous crap and call a spade a spade, huh? "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." -Leo Tolstoy- Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?: CAVEAT If you have to do things to your dog to train him that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer who tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, chin cuff, scruff shake or punish your dog in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows HOWE. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed. -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after. Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all. -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding. -Jerry Howe-
Response:
Great re-Post. Goes along with a bumper sticker I saw….. If ya wanted a yard ornament why’d ya buy a dog? Thanks, I’ll pass it on. MArtog
Response:
> one bit. This is merely so much knee jerk hysteria from nature phobic > ninnies who want to elevate their sense of self righteousness by > proseletyzing their ianity to others. Peeeeeyew.
SO all of the problems the rest of us see for "outside dogs" is a hallucination? — Lisa Baird Dublin, Ohio Haleakala Portuguese Water Dogs Buckeye Region Agility Group, Inc. PAWZitive Beginnings Dog Training, LLC
Response:
This reminds me of a very sad story. This neighbor who lived next door to my therapist’s office had a beautiful Brittany. I would love him every time I saw him. He became a very good friend. One day, the dog was gone. I asked the owner what had happened. He woke up one morning and the dog was missing and his gate was standing open. This man’s vet lived 2 houses down the street from him. Now this dog had a history of epileptic seizures. I thought finding him would be a piece of cake. I figured the nut who stole this dog would eventually have to take it somewhere when the dog had a seizure or just dump him. The owner said people in the neighborhood had seen a Brittany running loose. The owner never went to his vet to file a missing dog report or to check if his dog had been dropped off. Instead, he "called" the city pound and they told him he would need to come down in person to look for his dog. I got involved and began calling lost dog registry, all the local vets in his area, shelters etc. I asked people to put up signs in their vet offices for this missing dog. Again, I tried to rescue a dog with no success. Here’s what happened. The owner never went to the city pound. The dog was picked up and taken to his vet down the street. The dog wore no tags. The vet office eventually called Animal Control and the dog was taken from the clinic to the pound and put to sleep. Now is this dumb or what. Talk about an awful experience. When this man had his Brittany, his yard didn’t have much grass in it. After he lost his dog, he replanted his yard immediately and now he has a beautiful lawn. Go figure. Deb
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> OUTSIDE DOGS > By Dennis Fetko, Ph.D. > Reprinted from August 1995 issue of Whiskers & Wags, > Halifax Humane Society Newsletter > I’m familiar with hundreds of dog breeds, but what’s an outside dog? Unless > you’re medically intolerant of the dog (and therefore can’t take care of him in > a medical emergency, so you shouldn’t have the dog anyway), making a dog stay > outside is a costly waste. If he’s for protection, what do you think I want to > steal – your lawn? When you leave, do you put your valuables and your kids out > in your yard? Just what is the dog protecting out there? Most dogs kept outside > cause far more nuisance complaints from barking and escaping than any deterrent > to intrusion. Such complaints cause teasing, antagonism, release and poisoning. > With your dog a helpless victim, it’s no laughing matter. > If I’m a crook and your dog is out, your fence protects ME, not your possessions > or your dog. If I just open the gate, 9 out of 10 dogs will run off! I can > safely shoot, stab, spear, poison, snare, strangle them, or dart through the > fence and you just lost your dog AND everything I steal! > If he’s tied up and I keep out of reach, he’s useless. He’ll bark, but outside > dogs bark so much, they’re usually ignored. But let a dog hit the other side of > a door or window I’m breaking into, and I’m GONE! I can’t hurt the dog until he > can hurt me, and nothing you own is worth my arm. Deterrence is effective > protection. > Protection and aggression are not the same. Protection is defensive, reactive, > often passive, and threatens or injures no one. Aggression is active, harmful > and offensive, threatens all and benefits none. Yard dogs often develop far more > aggression than protectivity because everyone who passes by or enters has > already violated the territory that dog has marked dozens of times a day for > years. That’s not protection, it’s not desirable and it overlooks two facts of > life today: > First, property owners have implied social contracts with others in the > community. Letter carriers, paper boys, delivery people, law enforcement, > emergency medical personnel, meter readers and others are allowed near and > at times on your property without your specific permission. And sure that > ten-year-old was not supposed to jump your fence after his Frisbee; but neither > you nor your dog are allowed to cause him injury if he does. Imagine this: A > neighbor looks into your yard or window and sees you, your wife or child laying > on the floor in a pool of blood. They call 9-1-1 and your dog prevents > paramedics from assisting! Should they shoot your dog or just let you die? > Great choice. > Second, even if the intruder is a criminal, few places allow you or your dog to > cause physical injury to prevent property loss. Convicted felons have sued the > dog’s owner from jail and won more in the suit than they ever could > have stolen! > Appalling? True. > And don’t be foolish enough to believe your homeowner’s insurance will cover the > loss. Now you see why many feel that an outside dog is a no-brainer. > The more a dog is outdoors, the less behavioral control you have. It’s easier to > solve four or five indoor problems than one outdoor problem. The reason is valid > and simple: The more you control the stimuli that reaches your dog, the more you > control the responses. You’ve got a lot more control over your living room than > you do over your entire county! When your dog is bored, but teased by every dog, > cat, bird, squirrel, motorcycle, paperboy, airplane, firecracker and backfiring > truck in the county, OF COURSE he’ll dig, chew, and bark. > Would you sit still all day everyday? Do you want unnecessary medical and > parasite fees, especially as the dog ages? > When a dog is alone indoors, you are still 30% there because your scent and > things he associates with you, constantly remind the dog of you and your > training. When he’s out, your dog is alone whether you’re home or not. Do you > really expect him to keep YOU in mind while the entire world teases, distracts > and stimulates him? > The media is full of stories about the family dog saving everyone’s life during > a fire. How many people, including children, would be dead today if those dogs > were kept outside? SURE – you ALWAYS get up to investigate every > time your yard dog barks. And I’ve got this bridge. > An outdoor dog has an address, not a home. Dogs offer real value as companion > animals. Stop behavior problems and start enjoying real protection and > companionship. Bring your dogs inside. > Dennis Fetko, Ph.D. > *Originally posted by DogStar716 to r.p.d.b. > **Reposted with permission from the author. > ***This will likely become a monthly posting for newcomers to read.
Response:
>> Dennis, > You are a pompous, self-righteous idiot. Who the hell are you to lecture the > rest of us? When you gather some experience outside of academia maybe I’ll > listen to you. Until then keep your naive inexperienced advice to yourself. >Uhm, do you realize that you are ranting at a published article that >was reposted here?
Uhm, No I didn’t, but it still is a pile of BS. His assumption seems to be that those of us who have "Outside Dogs" never go outside, and only have the dogs there to guard against intruders. I spend most of my day outside with my dogs, and one or the other of them always goes shopping with me whenever I go. They sleep on a covered deck right outside my bedroom door. They are however there to guard. Not against two legged critters, I’ll take care of those, but rather against the four legged predators that live in these mountains. With two large GSD’s patrolling my property, my Chickens, Geese, Goats, and even my two cats are safe from the coyotes, fox, and mountain lions which prowl the night. One of neighbors who doesn’t have "outside dogs" periodically loses stock to those critters. The deer don’t even bother my vegetable garden. My dogs freely roam and play on the completely fenced three acres which surround my house. Does anyone really think they would be better off as a couple of couch potato, out of shape, "house dogs"? Give me a break! Imprison your dogs in the house if you must, but don’t criticize those of us who know better. Jerry
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> rest of us? When you gather some experience outside of academia maybe I’ll > listen to you. Until then keep your naive inexperienced advice to yourself.
Okay, real life experience having worked as a groomer, vat assistance and dog trainer (public classes) and been the neighborhood contact for any doggie questions for 15 years… the article is right on the mark. — Lisa Baird Dublin, Ohio Haleakala Portuguese Water Dogs Buckeye Region Agility Group, Inc. PAWZitive Beginnings Dog Training, LLC
Response:
> OUTSIDE DOGS
<slap> Oh, shaddap, moron.
Response:
Bullshit. We built our dogs a house damn near as nice as our own, they get plenty of attention, and they love their big yard. They aren’t suffering one bit. This is merely so much knee jerk hysteria from nature phobic ninnies who want to elevate their sense of self righteousness by proseletyzing their ianity to others. Peeeeeyew.
> rest of us? When you gather some experience outside of academia maybe I’ll > listen to you. Until then keep your naive inexperienced advice to yourself. > Okay, real life experience having worked as a groomer, vat assistance and dog trainer (public > classes) and been the neighborhood contact for any doggie questions for 15
years… the article – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> is right on the mark. > — > Lisa Baird > Dublin, Ohio > Haleakala Portuguese Water Dogs > Buckeye Region Agility Group, Inc. > PAWZitive Beginnings Dog Training, LLC
Response:
Hello rhyanon,
> Bullshit. We built our dogs a house damn near as nice as our own, > they get plenty of attention, and they love their big yard.
As it should be. But our Thugs over here on rpdb don’t agree to that. They tell people the same as Dr. Fetko says, thay the dog belongs inside. > They aren’t suffering one bit.
Right. There’s no reason why the dog can’t live comfortably outside, many prefer that. > This is merely so much knee jerk hysteria from nature phobic > ninnies who want to elevate their sense of self righteousness by > proseletyzing their ianity to others. Peeeeeyew.
EXACTLY, but that won’t change your pals over here on rpdb. They believe keeping an outside dog is abuse, and shocking and jerking and choking and twisting and pinching dogs’ ears and toes and testicles and beating dogs with sticks is APPROPRIATE, and killing dogs who become aggressive due to their training methods, reflects on BAD BREEDING, not the months of constant abuse and punishment they TEACH us to do to our dogs. The Jerry mentioned in this thread is another poster than myself. HOWEver, so it shouldn’t be a total loss, here’s all the facts you need to see what’s really going on here: Hello cindy mooreon, You epitomize everything that is wrong and vicious in the dog business. You intimidate, hurt, and kill dogs you can’t physically dominate. You fear dogs. That’s why you hurt and kill them. The shake can does not work, when you use it to intimidate and punish. That’s why this OP cannot use it, because she doesn’t understand the proper, effective use, of sound distraction and praise techniques… just as you don’t understand non force, non confrontational scientific and psychological techniques. That’s why you hurt dogs to train them and kill dogs who object to your "training." Here’s your forced fetch that I’ll invite you to demonstrate in front of a criminal jury or the t.v. cameras… if you’re interested in defending your methods… let’s talk cindy. Better get used to it. It Ain’t Over Till The Fat Lady Sings. The Show Must Go On! BRING ON THE CLOWNS!!! "Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens, But You’ll Get Over It." mike duforth, author: "Courteous Canine." As for what we chat about? That’s not nearly as important as what we DON’T chat about, like twisting and pinching dogs’ ears and toes and testicles and shocking and beating them with sticks, to make them want to work. Here’s the stick fetch. Here’s where your pal amy dahl ties a Retriever dog to a tree and throws a bumper out of his reach and then beats him with a stick to make him "REALLY DIG IN." That’s what you like, isn’t it. Read about our dog lovers methods for training a Retriever dog to retrieve. What do you suppose they got a capital R in front of their name for? (it’s at the bottom) http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force2.html??? Here’s the twisting and pinching part: What is Force Fetching All About? by Cindy Tittle Moore Copyright 1997,1998 by the author; all rights reserved. INTRODUCTION Force fetching refers to a training program whereby the dog is taught that he has no choice about going out and picking up something that you tell him to. Because of the many negative connotations (and inherent imprecision) of the term "force fetch," I generally prefer the term "conditioned retrieve." The need to impose a conditioned retrieve unrelated to the dog’s desire to retrieve. While you can condition a dog with no retrieving instinct whatsoever to retrieve, this training process is really all about teaching the dog to perform the retrieve under control. We all know of enthusiastic retrievers who bounce out to get the thrown object … and then play tag with it. Or drop it at your feet. Or race past you on the way back. Or, go out to pick it up and then refuse because it’s not his favorite toy. Or you want him to pick up something that is already laying on the ground and he’s not interested because the thrill of the "flight and chase" was not there. Or perhaps you’re asking him to pick up something that he’d really rather not put in his mouth. What do you do about these situations? Teaching the conditioned retrieve is one way to deal with these problems. Remember, the "traditional" part of the conditioned retrieve, ear pinching, is perhaps one third of the overall training program that allows a dog to reach this point of reliable non-refusal. The technique we use here is avoidance. In order to successfully, with the least amount of stress, use this technique, the means of escape must be taught first. In teaching something via avoidance, the dog learns that a specific behavior controls the stimulus he wishes to escape. That behavior is taught first so that it is a comfortable and well understood behavior by the time we bring pressure to bear. "Force fetching" was originally developed in the 19th century by Pointer folks, who were dealing with dogs with little to no retrieving instinct but who wanted to expand the utility of their dogs in the field. The process (which actually started with the toe hitch) has been refined in successive decades. Its application to retrievers is not because the dogs refuse to retrieve but the handler needs to gain control over the dog to meet the demands of a day of hunting or the requirements of a hunt test or field trial. The dog must be thoroughly trained to accept directions for a blind retrieve, which differs significantly from a marked fall in which the dog knows that there is a bird to retrieve. In the blind, the dog has only your say-so that there is in fact something to retrieve. In my personal opinion, one of the best overviews of the conditioned retrieve can be found in James Spencer’s Training Retrievers for the Field and Marshes. I follow his outline rather closely. Another excellent and more recent resource is the Tritronics Retrieving Manual Retriever Training by Jim and Phyllis Dobbs and Alice Woodyard, which despite its association with the Tritronics electronic collars has many excellent descriptions of training techniques that do not use the collar, including an overview of what they also term the "conditioned retrieve." (This is not a promotion or condemnation of electronic collars; merely a note that the Retriever Training book is useful for the person without an electronic collar as well.) Caveat There are, however, many variations on this theme and it’s hard to say if any are better or worse than others. Certainly there are individuals who misapply these methods, as there are individuals who will abuse any technique. Much of the success in conditioning a retrieve is very dependent on the trainer’s timing and access to experienced help. In other words, do not try to do this with your dogs unless you have someone experienced in this technique to help you out in person. Other notes There is a groundswell of interest in "non forced" techniques for the conditioned retrieve. I cannot say as to how well any of these work, as I have not used any of these techniques as the sole means of finishing a conditioned retrieve on any of my dogs. I have, however, had a good deal of success applying some of these techniques to puppies before teething and in beginning phases. I do encourage you to go out and investigate these methods if you are interested, but do note that my personal opinion is that at some time, corrections are required to teach the dog he has no option but to do what he’s asked. This is a whole philosphical area of dog training that I am not prepared to get into in this article. I do not say that my methods are the only way, I encourage you to read and investigate more if you wish. I am simply attempting to answer questions about a specific methodology and hopefully to dispell some of the mythology surrounding it. Finally The below described program is intended for the dog who is at least 6, preferably 9 months old. You want to be past the irritating and distracting teething stage so that your dog is not sidetracked in the process. THE HOLD Anyhow, the first part of a conditioned retrieve is teaching him to HOLD. There really are two separate concepts going on in retrieving an object. One is GOING OUT AND PICKING IT UP. The other concept is KEEPING IT IN THE MOUTH. So, teach your dog to hold first. This is actually taught quite conventionally. You need to start with a dog that will sit and walk nicely alongside first. The dog does not have to know hoiw to heel, but it helps. The dog should be easily controllable by you. The dog should be well past the new teeth stage (I’d say past 9 months of age in Labradors, though many people will begin forcing at 6 months). Know how to pry your dog’s mouth open. Put your hand on the muzzle, with your thumb on one side and the rest of your fingers on the other, with the pinkie finger closest to the eyes. Push the dog’s lips in forcing his mouth to open. You can train your dog to be responsive to this: pop a treat in his mouth when you do this, and he will learn not to fight too much when you handle his muzzle. If you need to, use your other hand to pull his lower jaw down a little, then pop in the treat. You can easily train him to open his mouth with your hand on the muzzle this way. I like to use a plain obedience type wooden dumbbell. You can use a 1" by 1′ dowel of wood as well, but I recommend that you use something that is easy to scoop off the floor at some point. Most people recommend that you not use any toys or bumpers or anything that you will be sorry to see him hate later. Though I must point out that I use the obedience dumbbell and do not see resentment to the dumbbell later. But bumpers can be awkward to handle particularly when first picking off the floor, so I would not use them in training. Put a … read more »
Response:
Thanks for posting that again Tara. I gave it to my vet and she posted it in her office. Bre – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > OUTSIDE DOGS > By Dennis Fetko, Ph.D. > Reprinted from August 1995 issue of Whiskers & Wags, > Halifax Humane Society Newsletter > I’m familiar with hundreds of dog breeds, but what’s an outside dog? Unless > you’re medically intolerant of the dog (and therefore can’t take care of him in > a medical emergency, so you shouldn’t have the dog anyway), making a dog stay > outside is a costly waste. If he’s for protection, what do you think I want to > steal – your lawn? When you leave, do you put your valuables and your kids out > in your yard? Just what is the dog protecting out there? Most dogs kept outside > cause far more nuisance complaints from barking and escaping than any deterrent > to intrusion. Such complaints cause teasing, antagonism, release and poisoning. > With your dog a helpless victim, it’s no laughing matter. > If I’m a crook and your dog is out, your fence protects ME, not your possessions > or your dog. If I just open the gate, 9 out of 10 dogs will run off! I can > safely shoot, stab, spear, poison, snare, strangle them, or dart through the > fence and you just lost your dog AND everything I steal! > If he’s tied up and I keep out of reach, he’s useless. He’ll bark, but outside > dogs bark so much, they’re usually ignored. But let a dog hit the other side of > a door or window I’m breaking into, and I’m GONE! I can’t hurt the dog until he > can hurt me, and nothing you own is worth my arm. Deterrence is effective > protection. > Protection and aggression are not the same. Protection is defensive, reactive, > often passive, and threatens or injures no one. Aggression is active, harmful > and offensive, threatens all and benefits none. Yard dogs often develop far more > aggression than protectivity because everyone who passes by or enters has > already violated the territory that dog has marked dozens of times a day for > years. That’s not protection, it’s not desirable and it overlooks two facts of > life today: > First, property owners have implied social contracts with others in the > community. Letter carriers, paper boys, delivery people, law enforcement, > emergency medical personnel, meter readers and others are allowed near and > at times on your property without your specific permission. And sure that > ten-year-old was not supposed to jump your fence after his Frisbee; but neither > you nor your dog are allowed to cause him injury if he does. Imagine this: A > neighbor looks into your yard or window and sees you, your wife or child laying > on the floor in a pool of blood. They call 9-1-1 and your dog prevents > paramedics from assisting! Should they shoot your dog or just let you die? > Great choice. > Second, even if the intruder is a criminal, few places allow you or your dog to > cause physical injury to prevent property loss. Convicted felons have sued the > dog’s owner from jail and won more in the suit than they ever could > have stolen! > Appalling? True. > And don’t be foolish enough to believe your homeowner’s insurance will cover the > loss. Now you see why many feel that an outside dog is a no-brainer. > The more a dog is outdoors, the less behavioral control you have. It’s easier to > solve four or five indoor problems than one outdoor problem. The reason is valid > and simple: The more you control the stimuli that reaches your dog, the more you > control the responses. You’ve got a lot more control over your living room than > you do over your entire county! When your dog is bored, but teased by every dog, > cat, bird, squirrel, motorcycle, paperboy, airplane, firecracker and backfiring > truck in the county, OF COURSE he’ll dig, chew, and bark. > Would you sit still all day everyday? Do you want unnecessary medical and > parasite fees, especially as the dog ages? > When a dog is alone indoors, you are still 30% there because your scent and > things he associates with you, constantly remind the dog of you and your > training. When he’s out, your dog is alone whether you’re home or not. Do you > really expect him to keep YOU in mind while the entire world teases, distracts > and stimulates him? > The media is full of stories about the family dog saving everyone’s life during > a fire. How many people, including children, would be dead today if those dogs > were kept outside? SURE – you ALWAYS get up to investigate every > time your yard dog barks. And I’ve got this bridge. > An outdoor dog has an address, not a home. Dogs offer real value as companion > animals. Stop behavior problems and start enjoying real protection and > companionship. Bring your dogs inside. > Dennis Fetko, Ph.D. > *Originally posted by DogStar716 to r.p.d.b. > **Reposted with permission from the author. > ***This will likely become a monthly posting for newcomers to read.
Response:
>An outdoor dog has an address, not a home. Dogs offer real value as companion >animals. Stop behavior problems and start enjoying real protection and >companionship. Bring your dogs inside. >Dennis Fetko, Ph.D.
Dennis, You are a pompous, self-righteous idiot. Who the hell are you to lecture the rest of us? When you gather some experience outside of academia maybe I’ll listen to you. Until then keep your naive inexperienced advice to yourself.
Response:
I second that.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->An outdoor dog has an address, not a home. Dogs offer real value as companion >animals. Stop behavior problems and start enjoying real protection and >companionship. Bring your dogs inside. >Dennis Fetko, Ph.D. > Dennis, > You are a pompous, self-righteous idiot. Who the hell are you to lecture the > rest of us? When you gather some experience outside of academia maybe I’ll > listen to you. Until then keep your naive inexperienced advice to yourself.
Response:
> Dennis, > You are a pompous, self-righteous idiot. Who the hell are you to lecture the > rest of us? When you gather some experience outside of academia maybe I’ll > listen to you. Until then keep your naive inexperienced advice to yourself.
Uhm, do you realize that you are ranting at a published article that was reposted here? Lynn K.
Response:
OUTSIDE DOGS By Dennis Fetko, Ph.D. Reprinted from August 1995 issue of Whiskers & Wags, Halifax Humane Society Newsletter I’m familiar with hundreds of dog breeds, but what’s an outside dog? Unless you’re medically intolerant of the dog (and therefore can’t take care of him in a medical emergency, so you shouldn’t have the dog anyway), making a dog stay outside is a costly waste. If he’s for protection, what do you think I want to steal – your lawn? When you leave, do you put your valuables and your kids out in your yard? Just what is the dog protecting out there? Most dogs kept outside cause far more nuisance complaints from barking and escaping than any deterrent to intrusion. Such complaints cause teasing, antagonism, release and poisoning. With your dog a helpless victim, it’s no laughing matter. If I’m a crook and your dog is out, your fence protects ME, not your possessions or your dog. If I just open the gate, 9 out of 10 dogs will run off! I can safely shoot, stab, spear, poison, snare, strangle them, or dart through the fence and you just lost your dog AND everything I steal! If he’s tied up and I keep out of reach, he’s useless. He’ll bark, but outside dogs bark so much, they’re usually ignored. But let a dog hit the other side of a door or window I’m breaking into, and I’m GONE! I can’t hurt the dog until he can hurt me, and nothing you own is worth my arm. Deterrence is effective protection. Protection and aggression are not the same. Protection is defensive, reactive, often passive, and threatens or injures no one. Aggression is active, harmful and offensive, threatens all and benefits none. Yard dogs often develop far more aggression than protectivity because everyone who passes by or enters has already violated the territory that dog has marked dozens of times a day for years. That’s not protection, it’s not desirable and it overlooks two facts of life today: First, property owners have implied social contracts with others in the community. Letter carriers, paper boys, delivery people, law enforcement, emergency medical personnel, meter readers and others are allowed near and at times on your property without your specific permission. And sure that ten-year-old was not supposed to jump your fence after his Frisbee; but neither you nor your dog are allowed to cause him injury if he does. Imagine this: A neighbor looks into your yard or window and sees you, your wife or child laying on the floor in a pool of blood. They call 9-1-1 and your dog prevents paramedics from assisting! Should they shoot your dog or just let you die? Great choice. Second, even if the intruder is a criminal, few places allow you or your dog to cause physical injury to prevent property loss. Convicted felons have sued the dog’s owner from jail and won more in the suit than they ever could have stolen! Appalling? True. And don’t be foolish enough to believe your homeowner’s insurance will cover the loss. Now you see why many feel that an outside dog is a no-brainer. The more a dog is outdoors, the less behavioral control you have. It’s easier to solve four or five indoor problems than one outdoor problem. The reason is valid and simple: The more you control the stimuli that reaches your dog, the more you control the responses. You’ve got a lot more control over your living room than you do over your entire county! When your dog is bored, but teased by every dog, cat, bird, squirrel, motorcycle, paperboy, airplane, firecracker and backfiring truck in the county, OF COURSE he’ll dig, chew, and bark. Would you sit still all day everyday? Do you want unnecessary medical and parasite fees, especially as the dog ages? When a dog is alone indoors, you are still 30% there because your scent and things he associates with you, constantly remind the dog of you and your training. When he’s out, your dog is alone whether you’re home or not. Do you really expect him to keep YOU in mind while the entire world teases, distracts and stimulates him? The media is full of stories about the family dog saving everyone’s life during a fire. How many people, including children, would be dead today if those dogs were kept outside? SURE – you ALWAYS get up to investigate every time your yard dog barks. And I’ve got this bridge. An outdoor dog has an address, not a home. Dogs offer real value as companion animals. Stop behavior problems and start enjoying real protection and companionship. Bring your dogs inside. Dennis Fetko, Ph.D. *Originally posted by DogStar716 to r.p.d.b. **Reposted with permission from the author. ***This will likely become a monthly posting for newcomers to read.
Response:
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