Puppy bought from pet store (big mistake)
Question:
Well breed clubs are only as good as their ability to enforce their rules and quite frankly IME they are IMPOSSIBLE to enforce. If you get one person savvy about their ‘rights’ who threatens to sue the club out of business the club is doomed unless it has either free legal help available (and some clubs do) or unlimited funds (and some clubs are quite wealthy). As a former club president I was faced with two terrible situations – one a person took her dogs out of state and left them at a place where they were to be given to a mill breeder but instead were dumped in a shelter. The other was where a board member caused all kinds of grief and threatened to sue everyone (including hiring a lawyer and paying for nasty letters to be sent to the rest of the board) which brought on congestive heart failure (survived) in one board member who was threatened with the loss of all her dogs as her only asset! In neither case did I as club president or the entire board have any power to do a darn thing about it despite all the club bylaw violations! In many cases the rules ONLY count when the members will abide by them! 
Nancy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Isnip story > internet & in all the states, are members of AKC or all-breed clubs & national > breed clubs due to this loop-hole? Guess AKC doesn’t want to restrict them, > because that would mean lost money $$$$ to them. What do the majority of you > think? > Wondering, > Douglas Dasdorf. > > > Any reputable breeder can tell- > > > Any reputable breeder would never sell to a pet store.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > here is where you might be wrong. believe it or not. > > Pet stores are a good outlet for big breeders to dispose of non show > > quality pups. most do so with strict guidelines that the pups are to be > > sold without papers and that they are not to disclose where the pup had > > come from. You would be surprised! > > These pups go to your more repudiple pet shops. > You JUST DON’T GET IT, do you? THEY ARE NOT REPUTABLE IF THEY SELL > Just because they are a "big breeder" who breeds "show dogs" doesn’t > make them reputable. The fact that they do not personally place and > follow up and each and every puppy they produce MAKES THEM IRRESPONSIBLE > BREEDERS. Period. Full stop. If they sell under the above conditions to > a pet shop they are not only DISreputable and IRresponsible breeders, > but they are also unethical (esp. because they are HIDING the fact that > they do so–why? because they KNOW it’s unethical). As has been said > time and time again, NO national breed (aka parent) club allows its > members to sell to pet shops or middlemen….and there’s a REASON for > that…..it is not an ethical practice. Parent clubs aren’t perfect, far > from it, but they go THIS one right…. > How many times does it have to be said? It automatically DISQUALIFIES a > breeder from being responsible by selling to a petshop or middleman, > because they have abdicated THEIR *responsibility* for the > appropropriate placement and followup of dogs they produce. No matter > how "good" the conditions in an individual pet shop may be, that breeder > DUMPED those puppies for cash and has washed their hands of any > responsibility for their future. > Wendy > Kyzyl Kum Salukis – Smooth & Feathered
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >The AKC told the secretary that is >this woman owns the pet shop with another person &/or gets the dogs & animals >she >sells on consignment, then there is nothing our club can do, unless the >by-laws >are specific about this. There is nothing in our by-laws about this. So, >there may >have to be a by-law change. All there is is that notation one signs on the >application to join stating that one never has, nor is currently, nor will in >the >future traffick in dogs for re-sale & a clause in our breeders directory >stating >that no one who is commercially connected to re-selling dogs, such as pet >shops & >brokers, can advertise in our club’s breeders directory. >So this is AKC’s policy. I wonder how many pet shops & dog/animal brokers on >the >internet & in all the states, are members of AKC or all-breed clubs & >national >breed clubs due to this loop-hole? Guess AKC doesn’t want to restrict them, >because that would mean lost money $$$$ to them. What do the majority of you >think?
A couple of thoughts come to my mind on this one. First, even if your club was to do a by-laws change, the general practice is that any change would be grandfathered to people who are already in the club. For an extreme example, there may be a section put in your by-laws not to allow any members into the club who live out of state. Well, if you already have out of state members, it would be presumtious to assume that they would be excluded from exiting membership even if a rule like that passed. The second point is that a club’s Code of Ethics (which is what I assume you are referring to on the application) is under the sole jurisdictiion of the club, not the AKC. The AKC does have a legal department in North Carolina which may be able to offer some sort of advice in certain situations, but in general, when a member is guilty of a COE violation, that would be a matter to be taken up by the club’s Board of Directors. In fact, the session could be made executive, which would mean that all mention or discussion is confidential until a final resolution is obtained. The session or sessions would serve the purpose to mainly determine and investigate if a violation was present and, if there is a violation, what actions are appropiate. Does this open the club up to possible litigation? Of course, it does, but if the proper procedure is followed and documented by your Recording Secretary, it will look a lot better if anything ever comes out of it. The chances that anyone would want to pursue a suit or other matters against a kennel club really aren’t that great. It takes both time and money to sue any person or organization, but the point is that when a club undertakes any sort of investigative or disciplinary action against a member there is baggage attached to it. Our kennel club went through a similar thing, but this involved a pendiing application which was denied for membership. A lot harder dealing with a person who is already a member. Mrc
Response:
>This new member owns & operates a >pet shop that sells pets with her name on the store. I went in to check for our >club, she has a sign that says, ‘Pets of All Kinds.’ She sells reptiles, dogs, >cats, birds, goats, you want it, she sells it. She listed her occupation as >’self-employed’ on our club application form. And signed that she never
has, >in the present, past, or future acted commercially in dogs as a broker, or >otherwise, trafficked in dogs for re-sale. In other words, she lied. Her two >sponsors knew she was a pet shop. (snipped for brevity) Guess AKC doesn’t want to restrict them, > because that would mean lost money $$$$ to them. What do the majority of you > think?
Hmmm, my guess is that AKC is too busy with its own problems to get muddled up in the inner workings of each individual club, and figures that the club itself needs to enforce the By-Laws, Standing Rules or whatever other policies it has in place to police its own membership, especially since AKC doesn’t want to spend the time and money defending itself when expelled club members decide to sue everybody involved because they’ve been "defamed" by being stripped of membership in an AKC-based club (if one feels injured by the expulsion, he/she could sue–the tricky bit comes in convincing the jury). In short, AKC has made a blanket decision to mind its own business. Oh yeah, the AKC doesn’t really make any money off of a club except for event application and recording fees, so it can’t possibly mean lost $$$$ to them. What the club might be able to do, is formally investigate the charge that she made a "false statement" on her membership application, and a) revoke her membership in accordance with the club’s By-Laws, b) invalidate the first application and require her to re-apply and thus be subject to election again. Sorry, but if the existing By-Laws don’t allow either action, and are changed to create a section that she would then be in violation of, she’s still a member so long as her dues remain paid because her membership was ‘valid’ at the time of her election. Karen
Response:
Why did this person join and what pressure has the club implemented to force them to quit the club or stop selling. Have you asked the new member where they get the animals actual
position on this–might be the only way to keep the business
operating or to stay afloat? Maybe there is a way your club
can help with better solutions. Just seems odd they joined unless they are trying to legitimize their sales with the membership.
i
> the all-breed club got a new member to join. This new member owns & operates a
> pet shop that sells pets with her name on the store. I went in to check for our
> club, she has a sign that says, ‘Pets of All Kinds.’
Posted using Reference.COM http://WWW.Reference.COM FREE Usenet and Mailing list archive, directory and clipping service
Response:
>>I have known breeders who sell to pet shops I would not just for the >reasons you specified but believe it or not there are breeders who do .one >reason it’s better than killing the pups. and some do . >I used to work with some humane society people up north.and I have seen >breeders who would kill some of the pups in a litter so people would not >see that their dogs are not perfect when asked why they would say.They >would be feeding a bunch of dogs they could not sell and that the dogs had >become liabilities. Actually these people should not even raise dogs!
I remember reading books on the subject of dog breeding which made no bones at all about the advisability of "culling the litter"–particularly when inbreeding to fix desired traits. Finances didn’t seem to have anything to do with it. Do breeders still do this? I gather not–which may be why line-breeding seems to have replaced outright inbreeding. (Who was it who said line-breeding is inbreeding for wimps?) Janet //Dear Artemesia! Poetry’s a snare: //Bedlam has many Mansions: have a care: //Your Muse diverts you, makes the Reader sad: //You think your self inspir’d; He thinks you mad.
Response:
I agree with everything you have stated. On the subject of national breed clubs, & all-breed clubs frowning on pet shops who sell dogs & animals, I would like to add something that surprised me. I belong to an all-breed club. About 10 years ago we had a different president & a woman who was on the board. This woman was adamant against pet shops. At that time, Dr. pet was in the mall & she was always vocalizing protests against them. Now 10 years later, 2 unscrupulous members of the all-breed club got a new member to join. This new member owns & operates a pet shop that sells pets with her name on the store. I went in to check for our club, she has a sign that says, ‘Pets of All Kinds.’ She sells reptiles, dogs, cats, birds, goats, you want it, she sells it. She listed her occupation as ’self-employed’ on our club application form. And signed that she never has, in the present, past, or future acted commercially in dogs as a broker, or otherwise, trafficked in dogs for re-sale. In other words, she lied. Her two sponsors knew she was a pet shop. She said she was just a groomer. True, she does groom, as well as anything else related to dogs & animals & selling them. Since then, our club has found out about her. our corresponding secretary called the AKC, no less, to find out their policy on this & what to do. The AKC told the secretary that is this woman owns the pet shop with another person &/or gets the dogs & animals she sells on consignment, then there is nothing our club can do, unless the by-laws are specific about this. There is nothing in our by-laws about this. So, there may have to be a by-law change. All there is is that notation one signs on the application to join stating that one never has, nor is currently, nor will in the future traffick in dogs for re-sale & a clause in our breeders directory stating that no one who is commercially connected to re-selling dogs, such as pet shops & brokers, can advertise in our club’s breeders directory. So this is AKC’s policy. I wonder how many pet shops & dog/animal brokers on the internet & in all the states, are members of AKC or all-breed clubs & national breed clubs due to this loop-hole? Guess AKC doesn’t want to restrict them, because that would mean lost money $$$$ to them. What do the majority of you think? Wondering, Douglas Dasdorf. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Any reputable breeder can tell- > > Any reputable breeder would never sell to a pet store. > here is where you might be wrong. believe it or not. > Pet stores are a good outlet for big breeders to dispose of non show > quality pups. most do so with strict guidelines that the pups are to be > sold without papers and that they are not to disclose where the pup had > come from. You would be surprised! > These pups go to your more repudiple pet shops. > You JUST DON’T GET IT, do you? THEY ARE NOT REPUTABLE IF THEY SELL > Just because they are a "big breeder" who breeds "show dogs" doesn’t > make them reputable. The fact that they do not personally place and > follow up and each and every puppy they produce MAKES THEM IRRESPONSIBLE > BREEDERS. Period. Full stop. If they sell under the above conditions to > a pet shop they are not only DISreputable and IRresponsible breeders, > but they are also unethical (esp. because they are HIDING the fact that > they do so–why? because they KNOW it’s unethical). As has been said > time and time again, NO national breed (aka parent) club allows its > members to sell to pet shops or middlemen….and there’s a REASON for > that…..it is not an ethical practice. Parent clubs aren’t perfect, far > from it, but they go THIS one right…. > How many times does it have to be said? It automatically DISQUALIFIES a > breeder from being responsible by selling to a petshop or middleman, > because they have abdicated THEIR *responsibility* for the > appropropriate placement and followup of dogs they produce. No matter > how "good" the conditions in an individual pet shop may be, that breeder > DUMPED those puppies for cash and has washed their hands of any > responsibility for their future. > Wendy > Kyzyl Kum Salukis – Smooth & Feathered
Response:
I quoted it from a book I have on dog breeding 
written by a vet who’s name currently escapes me. All line breeding does is slow up the process of culling by making it take longer to express the hidden and possibly negative recessive qualities in a particular breeding. Nancy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>I have known breeders who sell to pet shops I would not just for the >reasons you specified but believe it or not there are breeders who do one >reason it’s better than killing the pups. and some do . >I used to work with some humane society people up north.and I have seen >breeders who would kill some of the pups in a litter so people would not >see that their dogs are not perfect when asked why they would say.They >would be feeding a bunch of dogs they could not sell and that the dogs had >become liabilities. Actually these people should not even raise dogs! > I remember reading books on the subject of dog breeding which made no bones at > all about the advisability of "culling the litter"–particularly when > inbreeding to fix desired traits. Finances didn’t seem to have anything to do > with it. > Do breeders still do this? I gather not–which may be why line-breeding seems > to have replaced outright inbreeding. (Who was it who said line-breeding is > inbreeding for wimps?) > Janet > //Dear Artemesia! Poetry’s a snare: > //Bedlam has many Mansions: have a care: > //Your Muse diverts you, makes the Reader sad: > //You think your self inspir’d; He thinks you mad.
Response:
>I really, really hope you’re not holding your breath! (if so, you’ve been >holding it about five years now, right?)
I’ve turned blue…. Ann, Twzl & Sligo —
Response:
I am under the impression that truly > reputable breeders want people to know that the pup was from them. Any > reputable breeders out there reading this that insist that the prospective > buyer not know their name to research the puppy? also, any breeders who > admit to selling their babies to the stores? > lc
Since every single national breed club I’m aware of has stated in their Code of Ethics that selling any puppy dog to a retail store or wholesale dealer in dogs is *forbidden,* I’d say not. NO pups from ANY reputable breeder are EVER going to be in a pet store. Lori
Response:
I have known breeders who sell to pet shops I would not just for the reasons you specified but believe it or not there are breeders who do .one reason it’s better than killing the pups. and some do . I used to work with some humane society people up north.and I have seen breeders who would kill some of the pups in a litter so people would not see that their dogs are not perfect when asked why they would say.They would be feeding a bunch of dogs they could not sell and that the dogs had become liabilities. Actually these people should not even raise dogs! but at the time laws were not as strict. and a person could do to his own property whatever he wanted. the dogs that go to the pet shops from these people are spayed and neutered. and no papers are supplied. This is so the kennels name is not tarnished. This was 6 years ago perhaps things have changed. More like gotten worse.! I am sorry if I had stirred up a nest of hornets. I have seen puppy mills and they are terrible! I have seen puppy brokers . not any better. and your right no reputable breeder would sell to them. But it dose happen. and woh to the forgotten pups. Any good breeder knows you do not make money on raising dogs. I have 2 females and one male. only have a litter once every other year. and I keep in touch with every person who gets a pup from me. I have a litter on the ground now only two weeks old and already have over $2oo.oo in Vet bills , and in a couple of weeks shots start and more vet exams and worming. There is no way we are even going to break even. this also includes routine checkups on the mother to be sure she is in good health. Puppy millers pass on all the vet and other costs in order to make a profit also they need to breed many dogs and start before the female is ready usually on there first heat! and without vet check ups.I rescued one of these dogs a while back nothing but skin and bones She could not stand on her own and was too week to walk.she had hard thick calluses on her where she had to lie on the cold cement of her kennel. she was a black lab vet said she was bred to early and was never given a break. she grew old before her time and even with the best of care only lived for 6 months. But in the end she was happy.Died in her sleep under a willow tree.she was a good natured dog and would follow everyone around looking for a pat on the head.It made me feel good when I’d watch her rolling in the green grass of our back yard. I do believe she died happy. In the short 6 months that I had her she had more attention and love than she had had in her whole life. have one dog we sold who was trampled by a horse when 10 weeks old ,his new owners could not afford the bills and brought him back to us . and after some very high vet bills is doing fine he is now 4 years old. we have given him to a boy who is in a wheel chair. every couple weeks he comes out to visit his pal. and they have fun playing ball. This dog will live out his life with us and he is happy.and as for the boy he now has something to look forward to . Donna,
Response:
any reputable store will have this.- I have been in many pet stores and have yet to found a reputable one. The breeder should have checked on it before sale of the pup.- Puppy mills don’t seem to care about the puppies health, testicles were not on their minds. Dollars were. Any reputable breeder can tell- Any reputable breeder would never sell to a pet store. you should have done was try to find out who the breeder was it would have been on the registration papers of the pup- Have you tried to see the papers on a puppy at a store before you put your money on the table? All of the ones I have been to won’t do it. They won’t even give you the breeders name until you have paid for the pup. Alot of good that does, if you find out the pup is from a mill too bad! They won’t take them back unless it is for medical problems, then they simply exchange it for another puppymill puppy. lc Nikki and Blackie’s pet person
Response:
> > Any reputable breeder can tell- > Any reputable breeder would never sell to a pet store. > here is where you might be wrong. believe it or not. > Pet stores are a good outlet for big breeders to dispose of non show > quality pups. most do so with strict guidelines that the pups are to be > sold without papers and that they are not to disclose where the pup had > come from. You would be surprised! > These pups go to your more repudiple pet shops.
You JUST DON’T GET IT, do you? THEY ARE NOT REPUTABLE IF THEY SELL Just because they are a "big breeder" who breeds "show dogs" doesn’t make them reputable. The fact that they do not personally place and follow up and each and every puppy they produce MAKES THEM IRRESPONSIBLE BREEDERS. Period. Full stop. If they sell under the above conditions to a pet shop they are not only DISreputable and IRresponsible breeders, but they are also unethical (esp. because they are HIDING the fact that they do so–why? because they KNOW it’s unethical). As has been said time and time again, NO national breed (aka parent) club allows its members to sell to pet shops or middlemen….and there’s a REASON for that…..it is not an ethical practice. Parent clubs aren’t perfect, far from it, but they go THIS one right…. How many times does it have to be said? It automatically DISQUALIFIES a breeder from being responsible by selling to a petshop or middleman, because they have abdicated THEIR *responsibility* for the appropropriate placement and followup of dogs they produce. No matter how "good" the conditions in an individual pet shop may be, that breeder DUMPED those puppies for cash and has washed their hands of any responsibility for their future. Wendy Kyzyl Kum Salukis – Smooth & Feathered
Response:
Since when can you equate a ‘big’ breeder to a GOOD breeder? Pet stores are outlets for puppy mills and BYB ONLY and nowhere else. NO, NONE, ZILCH, NADA reputable breeders sell either directly or indirectly through a broker to a pet store Big breeders such as mills might but not reputable and responsible breeders Nancy >snip
> here is where you might be wrong. believe it or not. > Pet stores are a good outlet for big breeders to dispose of non show > quality pups. most do so with strict guidelines that the pups are to be > sold without papers and that they are not to disclose where the pup had > come from. You would be surprised! > These pups go to your more repudiple pet shops.
snip
Response:
> I don’t know where you live but some places have laws and guidelines to go > by and yes there are some that are OK and bide by these guidelines.
I would be interested to know what states have laws, and how they are worded, that require pet shop pups to come from parents tested for any and all genetic diseases possible, known in that breed and disclose any problems in the line, requires the pet shop employees to be knowledgeable enough about a variety of breeds to properly screen homes, and will take back a puppy at any time in its life, for any reason. And no, laws to not govern this for responsible breeders either, their conscience does. It is the responsibility of the buyer to research and find these breeders (breed clubs and publications, dog shows, word of mouth referral, etc.) Lisa Baird
Response:
>here is where you might be wrong. believe it or not. >Pet stores are a good outlet for big breeders to dispose of non show >quality pups. most do so with strict guidelines that the pups are to be >sold without papers and that they are not to disclose where the pup had >come from. You would be surprised! >These pups go to your more repudiple pet shops.
Fine. Please tell me which pet store is selling puppies from people who are breeding good dogs. I can’t find any. I can find plenty of stores who claim to sell dogs from caring local breeders, and who get their puppies from mills or BYB. But I can’t find any who buy up non-show quality dogs from breeders who are above the level of pond scum. Almost every breed club has a code of ethics that prohibits their members from selling via brokers and bunchers. Let’s say that a Golden breeder who is really active in the breed and who competes in various dog sports, breeds a litter with all clearances. And she has 16 puppies. She’s not selling 12 of them to a pet store!! Not if she’s a member of the GRCA and her local Golden club. Sorry, but it ain’t happening. Please tell me where a so-called "repudiple" pet store is that is buying puppies from breeders with half a brain, and is selling pups who’s parents had had all the health testing that they should have had. I would be especially interested in any store selling Goldens like this. I would expect to see a less than 18 month old CERF number, an OFA number, a cardiac report from a board certified cardiologist, thyroid testing, and and an OFA number on elbows. A store like this would also show any interested customers the pedigree for the litter, so that a prospective buyer could see the depth of clearances on the litter. So, let’s hear it. Let’s hear about this mythical pet store which is just as good as buying from a breeder. Ann (still waiting), Twzl & Sligo —
Response:
> any reputable store will have this.- > I have been in many pet stores and have yet to found a reputable one.
I don’t know where you live but some places have laws and guidelines to go by and yes there are some that are OK and bide by these guidelines. > The breeder should have checked on it before sale of the pup.- > Puppy mills don’t seem to care about the puppies health, testicles were not > on their minds. Dollars were.
…… I’m not saying puppy mills care and I have seen a few in my travels. and yes most are after the all mighty Dollar. …… > Any reputable breeder can tell- > Any reputable breeder would never sell to a pet store.
here is where you might be wrong. believe it or not. Pet stores are a good outlet for big breeders to dispose of non show quality pups. most do so with strict guidelines that the pups are to be sold without papers and that they are not to disclose where the pup had come from. You would be surprised! These pups go to your more repudiple pet shops. > you should have done was try to find out who the breeder was > it would have been on the registration papers of the pup- > Have you tried to see the papers on a puppy at a store before you put your > money on the table? All of the ones I have been to won’t do it. They won’t > even give you the breeders name until you have paid for the pup.
Then this would tell you something about the quality of the stores reputation wouldn’t it. When this happens you pass on that pup and keep looking. Alot of > good that does, if you find out the pup is from a mill too bad! They won’t > take them back unless it is for medical problems, then they simply exchange > it for another puppymill puppy. > lc Nikki and Blackie’s pet person
Donna
Response:
Laws and guidelines governing what? The condition the puppies are kept in store store yes. But the damage was already done when the bitch was breed at the puppymill. I have yet to find a single pet store that would even tell me who the breeder was until the pup was paid for. As I stated in other post, I frequently go to Vegas and give the clerks at the pet stores a hard time. I also have in many places in Oregon, Eugene, Medford, Portland etc. California too. None could produce even a name for me to investigate the puppies breeder and background. I am under the impression that truly reputable breeders want people to know that the pup was from them. Any reputable breeders out there reading this that insist that the prospective buyer not know their name to research the puppy? also, any breeders who admit to selling their babies to the stores? lc > any reputable store will have this.- > I have been in many pet stores and have yet to found a reputable one.
> I don’t know where you live but some places have laws and guidelines to go > by and yes there are some that are OK and bide by these guidelines.
> The breeder should have checked on it before sale of the pup.- > Puppy mills don’t seem to care about the puppies health, testicles were > not > on their minds. Dollars were.
> …… > I’m not saying puppy mills care and I have seen a few in my travels. and > yes most are after the all mighty Dollar.
> …… > Any reputable breeder can tell- > Any reputable breeder would never sell to a pet store.
> here is where you might be wrong. believe it or not. > Pet stores are a good outlet for big breeders to dispose of non show > quality pups. most do so with strict guidelines that the pups are to be > sold without papers and that they are not to disclose where the pup had > come from. You would be surprised! > These pups go to your more repudiple pet shops.
> you should have done was try to find out who the breeder was > it would have been on the registration papers of the pup- > Have you tried to see the papers on a puppy at a store before you put > your > money on the table? All of the ones I have been to won’t do it. They > won’t > even give you the breeders name until you have paid for the pup.
> Then this would tell you something about the quality of the stores > reputation wouldn’t it. When this happens you pass on that pup and keep > looking.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Alot of > good that does, if you find out the pup is from a mill too bad! They > won’t > take them back unless it is for medical problems, then they simply > exchange > it for another puppymill puppy. > lc Nikki and Blackie’s pet person > Donna
Response:
> > any reputable store will have this.- > I have been in many pet stores and have yet to found a reputable one.
> I don’t know where you live but some places have laws and guidelines to go > by and yes there are some that are OK and bide by these guidelines.
Response:
Related Posts