Dr. Kyla Bashes Pits and Owners!
Question:
LOL! What different worlds we live in! The only pit bull I know of in my town is owned by the owners of the fitness center, and she’s the mascot and spoiled by everyone who works out. And the only ones who wear ‘lots’ of gold jewelry are successful young fishermen who wear their paychecks in the form of gold nuggets – the favorite used to be enormous wrist watches with ram’s heads with ruby eyes on the bands. Or king crabs with ruby eyes on the bands. OTOH, DH and me both have gold nugget wedding rings. Maybe I should trade in my toy poodle, keep the image intact. And tell my biker friend to get rid of his shih tzu, she’s not macho enough. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!
Response:
she’s >certainly not ignorant of what her clients who own pitbulls are like. She >sees them in person. You are the one who is ignorant about what her >clients are like. When I saw patients at an emergency clinic in SF, CA, I >too saw a lot of pit bull owners come in smelling of pot
Bullshit , and don’t even bother attempting to argue about the Bay Area and APBT owners therein with me Hillary. You’ll find yourself way out of your depth. and in fact one >time, an owner actually attempted to barter for services by offering the >receptionist an ounce of marijuana. Facts are facts. That’s not to say >that ALL pit bull owners are like that.
BUt you defend the fact that Kyla attempted to portray ALL owners as what she claimed.Hypocrite. Just that a certain number of the >ones I saw are, and that the ones at Kyla’s practice (all six of >them) apparently are. I see a large number of pit bulls here in West >Philly that are owned by completely "normal" seeming people;
Just as in the Bay Area , where thousands and thousands of NORMAL folks own them. I also see >some that are owned by people who wear red or blue to the extreme, lots of >gold jewelry, fancy new expensive sneakers, and drive mercedes and carry >cell phones.
ASSUming a great deal based upon dress and possessions are ya? just the way it is here. Other breeds popular with this >group are rottweilers and…actually, I must say this particular subgroup >of our clientele generally has rotties or pits. But so do a lot of >suburban yuppies!
Then point out the suburban yuppies.
Response:
By far the most dangerous, agressive creature in the world is the human being! This entier thread has proven that; (As if we needed more evidence, ) lo these many millennia! B.J.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > she’s >certainly not ignorant of what her clients who own pitbulls are like. She >sees them in person. You are the one who is ignorant about what her >clients are like. When I saw patients at an emergency clinic in SF, CA, I >too saw a lot of pit bull owners come in smelling of pot > Bullshit , and don’t even bother attempting to argue about the Bay Area > and APBT owners > therein with me Hillary. You’ll find yourself way out of your depth. > and in fact one >time, an owner actually attempted to barter for services by offering the >receptionist an ounce of marijuana. Facts are facts. That’s not to say >that ALL pit bull owners are like that. > BUt you defend the fact that Kyla attempted to portray ALL owners as what > she claimed.Hypocrite. > Just that a certain number of the >ones I saw are, and that the ones at Kyla’s practice (all six of >them) apparently are. I see a large number of pit bulls here in West >Philly that are owned by completely "normal" seeming people; > Just as in the Bay Area , where thousands and thousands of NORMAL folks > own them. > I also see >some that are owned by people who wear red or blue to the extreme, lots of >gold jewelry, fancy new expensive sneakers, and drive mercedes and carry >cell phones. > ASSUming a great deal based upon dress and possessions are ya? > just the way it is here. Other breeds popular with this >group are rottweilers and…actually, I must say this particular subgroup >of our clientele generally has rotties or pits. But so do a lot of >suburban yuppies! > Then point out the suburban yuppies.
Response:
Don’t go there; She knows her stuff, and doesn’t shy from a challenge! B.J.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Is this a real post from Dr. Kyla. I really don’t like putting a Vet in > my kill file. > dw > > All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by > > stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the > > street to avoid walking next to them, etc. > > When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the > > office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug > > stashes? > > Kyla, DVM
Response:
That is what is confusing me. I have read many posts from her in the past and had no reason to question her objectivity. dw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Don’t go there; She knows her stuff, and doesn’t shy from a challenge! > B.J. > Is this a real post from Dr. Kyla. I really don’t like putting a Vet in > my kill file. > dw > > > All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by > > > stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the > > > street to avoid walking next to them, etc. > > > When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the > > > office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug > > > stashes? > > > Kyla, DVM
Response:
>Don’t go there; She knows her stuff, and doesn’t shy from a challenge! >B.J.
More like pompous , arrogant and highly misinformed at times.
Response:
Hold …….on that opinion for now; Not all the votes are counted!
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Don’t go there; She knows her stuff, and doesn’t shy from a challenge! >B.J. > More like pompous , arrogant and highly misinformed at times.
Response:
Kyla is speaking from personal experience; Something, thank God, most of us are spared. B.j.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> That is what is confusing me. I have read many posts from her in the past and > had no reason to question her objectivity. > dw > Don’t go there; She knows her stuff, and doesn’t shy from a challenge! > B.J. > > Is this a real post from Dr. Kyla. I really don’t like putting a Vet in > > my kill file. > > dw > > > > All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by > > > > stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the > > > > street to avoid walking next to them, etc. > > > > When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the > > > > office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug > > > > stashes? > > > > Kyla, DVM
Response:
Marshall, There are vast geographical regions where they are definitely NOT the exception; It must be nice in Camelot! B.J.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->* >*>> >*>> All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by >*>> stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the >*>> street to avoid walking next to them, etc. >*>> >* >*where the hell does this person live?? Talk about ignorance and > stereotyping. >*who is this person anyway ? is this person a real DVM? >*Not going to treat any of my dogs. >She lives in Canada. Yes she’s a real vet. I daresay, however, that she’s >certainly not ignorant of what her clients who own pitbulls are like. She >sees them in person. You are the one who is ignorant about what her >clients are like. When I saw patients at an emergency clinic in SF, CA, I >too saw a lot of pit bull owners come in smelling of pot and in fact one >time, an owner actually attempted to barter for services by offering the >receptionist an ounce of marijuana. Facts are facts. That’s not to say >that ALL pit bull owners are like that. Just that a certain number of the >ones I saw are, and that the ones at Kyla’s practice (all six of >them) apparently are. I see a large number of pit bulls here in West >Philly that are owned by completely "normal" seeming people; I also see >some that are owned by people who wear red or blue to the extreme, lots of >gold jewelry, fancy new expensive sneakers, and drive mercedes and carry >cell phones. It’s just the way it is here. Other breeds popular with this >group are rottweilers and…actually, I must say this particular subgroup >of our clientele generally has rotties or pits. But so do a lot of >suburban yuppies! > I must say its a sad time indeed when the dignity and reputation of a dog must > suffer at the hands of > these people. I am sure that there are people of this type out there, but > they are the exception not the rule. > There have been vets who will not even see or treat a pit bull even if it is a > loving family pet. > "Dog is mans best friend and sometimes man is a dogs worst enemy." > Donna
Response:
> BUt you defend the fact that Kyla attempted to portray ALL owners as what >she claimed.Hypocrite.
Kyla never said that all pit bull owners were that way, she said that the six pit bull owners that she sees in her practice are that way. I have been fortunate (or not) enough to have worked in four different states in the veterinary medicine profession. Alabama, in Birmingham where most (not all) of the pit bulls that we saw were outside dogs kept on chains. They were, overall, not well socialized and although they tended to be ok with people, most of them were somewhat dog aggressive. The pits I worked with in Hawaii tended to be family dogs, well socialized and easy to handle. Pensacola, Florida yeilded some of the most aggressive of the pits that I have worked with, many of them coming from individuals who took pride in their dogs’ aggressiveness. In Maryland, all of the pits I have come in contact with thus far have been from great owners and the dogs were wonderful. I am not saying that pits are terrible dogs or that they are not, all I am saying is that there can be a big difference from area to area. I have noticed similar differences with other breeds as well. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!
Response:
>Hold …….on that opinion for now; >Not all the votes are counted!
Since when does popular opinion automatically dictate one’s personal opinion? Denna http://www.picantes.com/pitbull – The Real Pit Bull http://www.picantes.com/caleb – Come admire my puppy! http://www.picantes.com/windwolf – My art, pets, and twisted world view
Response:
BJKunkel writes:
:There are vast geographical regions :where they are definitely NOT the :exception; It must be nice in Camelot! One doesn’t have to travel to Camelot to find decent to excellent Pit Bull owners. You would appear to be nothing but a bigot, and not just a breed bigot. JohnR Pit Bull Libertarian Never sneer at the power of a little pink squeaky toy!
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is >owned by > >> stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross >the > >> street to avoid walking next to them, et > >> When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up >>>the office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug > >> stashes? > >> Kyla, DVM > where the hell does this person live?? Talk about ignorance and >stereotyping. > who is this person anyway ? is this person a real DVM? > Not going to treat any of my dogs. >Hello Donna, >Excuse my post, I thought that your post was from marshall dermer, >our resident "behaviorist." J>>>
Thats OK I can see how the mistake was made. Donna Marshall Marshall’s American Bulldogs
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by >> stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the >> street to avoid walking next to them, etc. >> When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the >> office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug >> stashes? >> Kyla, DVM > where the hell does this person live?? Talk about ignorance and stereotyping. > who is this person anyway ? is this person a real DVM? > Not going to treat any of my dogs.
Hello Donna, Excuse my post, I thought that your post was from marshall dermer, our resident "behaviorist." J>>>
Response:
Methinks you’ve written this one a bit "tongue-in-cheek" I hope I’m right. B.J.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> x-no-archive:yes > All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by > stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the > street to avoid walking next to them, etc. > When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the > office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug > stashes? > Kyla, DVM > Now you have stepped over the line of common decency, and the line of > ignorance, that separates intelligent people from morons. > How dare you! > Are you saying you allow the owners of Pitbulls to smoke pot in your > office, too? > (ken)
Response:
By the way Ken, If it wasn’t written tongue-in-chhek, what makes you think you would ever want to even try to stop junkies with pit-bulls attached from doing absolutely anything they feel like? I ……wouldn’t go there! B.J.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> x-no-archive:yes > All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by > stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the > street to avoid walking next to them, etc. > When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the > office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug > stashes? > Kyla, DVM > Now you have stepped over the line of common decency, and the line of > ignorance, that separates intelligent people from morons. > How dare you! > Are you saying you allow the owners of Pitbulls to smoke pot in your > office, too? > (ken)
Response:
* *I must say its a sad time indeed when the dignity and reputation of a dog must *suffer at the hands of these people. I absolutely agree. *I am sure that there are people of this type out there, but *they are the exception not the rule. You’re probably right – although it seems that in Kyla’s neighborhood, there are a lot of stoners owning pit bulls. This really doesn’t surprise me as it is pretty common for people within a certain cultural group to share similar tastes in things, including pets. h. — "uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est." upenn school of vet med class of 2000
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[snip unrelated material] > It’s just the way it is here. Other breeds popular with this > group are rottweilers and…actually, I must say this particular subgroup > of our clientele generally has rotties or pits. But so do a lot of > suburban yuppies!
On the subject of Rotties – I have a friend with two massive and dangerously dog and leash agressive Rotts, an intact male about 2 yrs. old, and a female about 1 1/2 yrs. old. The female being the most aggressive. He had another incident with his dogs at a dog park yesterday, where they were getting along with the other dogs well enough (although very rough), but when it was time to leave and he leashed them at the gate and another intact, aggressive male dog, off leash and coming into the park, unrestrained by his idiot owner even after a warning and plea from my friend to please wait and let him get out with his Rotts before he let his dog loose….the loose male bit Jasmine on her flanks twice while Chris tried to hold back Davidson and calm Jasmine… Chris let Jasmine loose to defend herself….and that’s all she wrote. Anyway, he has asked me to help him train his dogs, and I’m not sure that training will help that much…I’ve seen those dogs in action before. I won’t let my lab, Jessie, anywhere near his dogs again because of a previous attack that luckily I was able to stem off because Jessie is such a GOOD dog and disengaged when I called him to and heeled with me to the house before any real damage was done. My plan of action: Sit, sit/stay, down, down/stay, come, heel. Using choke collar corrections (done right – with a quick snap upwards to create more of an interupting noise – not choke the dog) I may try a prong collar if a choke collar worked correctly doesn’t produce results. I’m not sure that we’ll get that far yet, or if the owner will commit what is required of his time and efforts, but this is where I’m starting unless I get better advise. My question for Rotty owners and owners of previously aggressive large dogs: What do you consider the best and safest methods of teaching the sit or down to nonsubmissive and leash aggressive dog types? Any good starting pointers for me? I have not had much training experience with that type of temperment and am researching methods that are different from training your run-of-the-mill dog. Thanks for any advise in advance. Morgan
Response:
Is this a real post from Dr. Kyla. I really don’t like putting a Vet in my kill file. dw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by > stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the > street to avoid walking next to them, etc. > When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the > office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug > stashes? > Kyla, DVM
Response:
Man, did you fall out of the tree when that monkey that whelped you dropped you for a banana? J>
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> x-no-archive:yes > All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by > stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the > street to avoid walking next to them, etc. > When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the > office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug > stashes? > Kyla, DVM > Now you have stepped over the line of common decency, and the line of > ignorance, that separates intelligent people from morons. > How dare you! > Are you saying you allow the owners of Pitbulls to smoke pot in your > office, too? > (ken)
Response:
*On the subject of Rotties – I have a friend with two massive and dangerously dog *and leash agressive Rotts, an intact male about 2 yrs. old, and a female about 1 [snip] *Anyway, he has asked me to help him train his dogs, and I’m not sure that training *will help that much…I’ve seen those dogs in action before. I won’t let my lab, I suggest right off the bat that you consider NOT working with these dogs if you are at all concerned about potential liability. One problem that I as a future general practicioner have been warned about is the potential for being successfully sued if I make recommendations (without seeking a consultation with a board-certified expert) about training or other methods of working with an aggressive dog, and the dog goes on to bite someone….guess who could be liable? So that is something to consider. If you try to help, and the dogs go out and attack someone, and the owner’s defense is "well, it’s not my fault, I had a trainer who said if I did xyz it would be ok…" then… My next suggestion is that these dogs should be wearing head collars (aka Promise collar, Gentle Leader, or other brands) at ALL times. These provide increased control of the snout and allow the handler to close the mouth quickly and easily. They stimulate the area at the top of the neck just behind the ears, which is a natural/instinctual pressure point which can cause the dog to relax and calm down and listen to the owner (this is where mom presses down to discipline the puppies). They work MUCH better than prong or pinch collars which attempt to deal with the problem by inflicting pain. These dogs sound like they need professional help, but I recognize that it isn’t always available. Perhaps you can find a vet who has some textbook material on working with dangerously aggressive dogs, who could offer some handouts or something. -h. — "uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est." upenn school of vet med class of 2000
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by >> stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the >> street to avoid walking next to them, etc. >> When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the >> office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug >> stashes? >> Kyla, DVM > where the hell does this person live?? Talk about ignorance and stereotyping. > who is this person anyway ? is this person a real DVM? > Not going to treat any of my dogs.
You mean the dogs that you only punish their behaviors, and not them? Eh, doc? J>>> "Thus we should beware of clinging to vulgar opinions, and judge things by reason’s way, not by popular say." Montaigne Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Salvor Hardin If you cannot convince them, confuse them. H.S. Truman. ;~) DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… J>>> "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." Leo Tolstoy Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?: caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed. -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after. Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all. -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding. -Jerry Howe-
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >* >*>> >*>> All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by >*>> stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the >*>> street to avoid walking next to them, etc. >*>> >* >*where the hell does this person live?? Talk about ignorance and stereotyping. >*who is this person anyway ? is this person a real DVM? >*Not going to treat any of my dogs. >She lives in Canada. Yes she’s a real vet. I daresay, however, that she’s >certainly not ignorant of what her clients who own pitbulls are like. She >sees them in person. You are the one who is ignorant about what her >clients are like. When I saw patients at an emergency clinic in SF, CA, I >too saw a lot of pit bull owners come in smelling of pot and in fact one >time, an owner actually attempted to barter for services by offering the >receptionist an ounce of marijuana. Facts are facts. That’s not to say >that ALL pit bull owners are like that. Just that a certain number of the >ones I saw are, and that the ones at Kyla’s practice (all six of >them) apparently are. I see a large number of pit bulls here in West >Philly that are owned by completely "normal" seeming people; I also see >some that are owned by people who wear red or blue to the extreme, lots of >gold jewelry, fancy new expensive sneakers, and drive mercedes and carry >cell phones. It’s just the way it is here. Other breeds popular with this >group are rottweilers and…actually, I must say this particular subgroup >of our clientele generally has rotties or pits. But so do a lot of >suburban yuppies!
I must say its a sad time indeed when the dignity and reputation of a dog must suffer at the hands of these people. I am sure that there are people of this type out there, but they are the exception not the rule. There have been vets who will not even see or treat a pit bull even if it is a loving family pet. "Dog is mans best friend and sometimes man is a dogs worst enemy." Donna
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*
*>> *>> All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by *>> stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the *>> street to avoid walking next to them, etc. *>> * *where the hell does this person live?? Talk about ignorance and stereotyping. *who is this person anyway ? is this person a real DVM? *Not going to treat any of my dogs. She lives in Canada. Yes she’s a real vet. I daresay, however, that she’s certainly not ignorant of what her clients who own pitbulls are like. She sees them in person. You are the one who is ignorant about what her clients are like. When I saw patients at an emergency clinic in SF, CA, I too saw a lot of pit bull owners come in smelling of pot and in fact one time, an owner actually attempted to barter for services by offering the receptionist an ounce of marijuana. Facts are facts. That’s not to say that ALL pit bull owners are like that. Just that a certain number of the ones I saw are, and that the ones at Kyla’s practice (all six of them) apparently are. I see a large number of pit bulls here in West Philly that are owned by completely "normal" seeming people; I also see some that are owned by people who wear red or blue to the extreme, lots of gold jewelry, fancy new expensive sneakers, and drive mercedes and carry cell phones. It’s just the way it is here. Other breeds popular with this group are rottweilers and…actually, I must say this particular subgroup of our clientele generally has rotties or pits. But so do a lot of suburban yuppies! -h. — "uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est." upenn school of vet med class of 2000
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>> All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by > stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the > street to avoid walking next to them, etc. > When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the > office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug > stashes? > Kyla, DVM
where the hell does this person live?? Talk about ignorance and stereotyping. who is this person anyway ? is this person a real DVM? Not going to treat any of my dogs.
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obviously some folks here are not in total touch with todays reality. as a street cop in alabama i had numerous run-ins with dopers with mainly pits or rottie… NO-this does not mean that all owners of those breeds are dopers etc- but unfortunately we have had to kill more than one of them on raids, searches, and simple traffic stops. the dumb-ass dopers think that we wont do our job simply because they own-AND ABUSE- these animals. we are never happy to have to kill the animals- it isnt their fault- but must admit that some of them are definitely better off being out of their "home". i still remember the horror of 5 officers having to shoot a pit more than 15 times to stop it- and this was with .40 cal handguns and 12 gauge shotguns- the scumbag owner had been giving the animal hits of cocaine and meth along with its food. these lowlife owners have done for these breeds what OJ Simpson did for Akita’s. Lord help us all…… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->x-no-archive:yes > All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by > stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the > street to avoid walking next to them, etc. > When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the > office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug > stashes? > Kyla, DVM >Now you have stepped over the line of common decency, and the line of >ignorance, that separates intelligent people from morons. >How dare you! >Are you saying you allow the owners of Pitbulls to smoke pot in your >office, too? >(ken)
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Akitaems writes:
<obviously some folks here are not in total <touch with todays reality. as a street cop in <alabama i had numerous run-ins with dopers <with mainly pits or rottie… NO-this does <not mean that all owners of those breeds are <dopers etc- but unfortunately we have had to <kill more than one of them on raids, searches, <and simple traffic stops. Ah yes, the drug warriors "have" to kill dogs bacause they "have" to raid homes and get their quota of profile stops in every month. JohnR Pit Bull Libertarian Never sneer at the power of a little pink squeaky toy!
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>i still remember the >horror of 5 officers having to shoot a pit more than 15 times to stop >it- and this was with .40 cal handguns and 12 gauge shotguns- the >scumbag owner had been giving the animal hits of cocaine and meth >along with its food.
This is a really sad statement on the firearms handling of the officers involved. No matter the breed, no matter how much drugs are involved, it only takes one shot to the head with a .22 to stop an attacking dog. Denna http://www.picantes.com/pitbull – The Real Pit Bull http://www.picantes.com/caleb – Come admire my puppy! http://www.picantes.com/windwolf – My art, pets, and twisted world view
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> >i still remember the >horror of 5 officers having to shoot a pit more than 15 times to stop >it- and this was with .40 cal handguns and 12 gauge shotguns- the >scumbag owner had been giving the animal hits of cocaine and meth >along with its food. > This is a really sad statement on the firearms handling of the > officers involved. No matter the breed, no matter how much drugs are > involved, it only takes one shot to the head with a .22 to stop an > attacking dog.
Hang on, give the officers a break. A dog can be killed with a single shot to the head with a .22 BUT I wouldn’t fancy trying to aim accurately at a small frenzied moving target. If you can’t get the head then you would be aiming for body shots ie heart and lungs, and the dog would not die immediately. There have been documented cases in the USA of humans being able to continue an attack for up to 45-50 seconds after having been shot clean through the heart. I don’t know how long the dog would last but I think I would keep firing until I saw it drop. Out of curiosity, how many of the 15+ shots actually hit the dog? Donna S.
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in response- yes you can kill most anything with a single .22 shot, to the head, in a very tiny spot, with the right ammo- and yes i have done it on many animals larger than a pissed off pitbull- but they werent working in overdrive, extremely pissed, and doped up. humans have been known to absorb many more rounds than that and continue on- just read the reports on the FBI agents killed in miami- that man was clinically dead for approx 25 seconds before he stopped- and killed one,wounded one in the meantime. in new york a man absorbed 35 rds- including 2-3 loads of buckshot from a 12 guage and continued his knife attack against one of the officers. i have seen a deer run almost a mile and a half with both shoulders blown out as well as the heart and both lungs ripped up from a highpower rifle- and he wasnt working off anything but a will to survive. thank you to the second person that was kind enough to think before wanting to trample the officers involved- it is really welcomed. and in response to your question, 14 rds hit with several being "thru&thru" shots that passed completely thru him and into the surrounding walls/floor. yes- the shotgun held 00buckshot and the pistols held an excellent brand of hollowpoint ammo. as for our weapons handling- i personally have shot for the dept pistol team, 121st ARCOM and 2nd Army pistol teams, as well as maintained an "expert" rating with my duty weapon, backup weapon, AR-15, 9mm carbine, and submachine gun. several of the other officers were right up there with me in weapons ability- including one that was prior active duty special forces and still in the SF reserve. hopefully this can bring this tragic and depressing thread to an end. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >i still remember the > >horror of 5 officers having to shoot a pit more than 15 times to stop > >it- and this was with .40 cal handguns and 12 gauge shotguns- the > >scumbag owner had been giving the animal hits of cocaine and meth > >along with its food. > This is a really sad statement on the firearms handling of the > officers involved. No matter the breed, no matter how much drugs are > involved, it only takes one shot to the head with a .22 to stop an > attacking dog. >Hang on, give the officers a break. >A dog can be killed with a single shot to the head with a .22 BUT I wouldn’t >fancy trying to aim accurately at a small frenzied moving target. If you >can’t get the head then you would be aiming for body shots ie heart and >lungs, and the dog would not die immediately. There have been documented >cases in the USA of humans being able to continue an attack for up to 45-50 >seconds after having been shot clean through the heart. >I don’t know how long the dog would last but I think I would keep firing >until I saw it drop. >Out of curiosity, how many of the 15+ shots actually hit the dog? >Donna S.
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If your lucky enough to place that one shot in the head of a charging animal. Have you ever fired a gun in a tense situation? Especially a handgun? You can miss a target that is a mere 10 feet in front of you. One shot, give me a break. —
| | >i still remember the | >horror of 5 officers having to shoot a pit more than 15 times to stop | >it- and this was with .40 cal handguns and 12 gauge shotguns- the | >scumbag owner had been giving the animal hits of cocaine and meth | >along with its food. | | | This is a really sad statement on the firearms handling of the | officers involved. No matter the breed, no matter how much drugs are | involved, it only takes one shot to the head with a .22 to stop an | attacking dog. | | Denna | | | http://www.picantes.com/pitbull – The Real Pit Bull | http://www.picantes.com/caleb – Come admire my puppy! | http://www.picantes.com/windwolf – My art, pets, and twisted world view
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My dog’s breeder used to hunt mountain lions and bears for the State California with a handgun (357 Magnum). He said you couldn’t use a rifle and handle the dogs at the same time. He said you had to get them in the right place to stop them. Richard – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > If your lucky enough to place that one shot in the head of a charging > animal. Have you ever fired a gun in a tense situation? Especially a > handgun? You can miss a target that is a mere 10 feet in front of you. > One shot, give me a break. > — > | > | >i still remember the > | >horror of 5 officers having to shoot a pit more than 15 times to > stop > | >it- and this was with .40 cal handguns and 12 gauge shotguns- the > | >scumbag owner had been giving the animal hits of cocaine and meth > | >along with its food. > | > | > | This is a really sad statement on the firearms handling of the > | officers involved. No matter the breed, no matter how much drugs > are > | involved, it only takes one shot to the head with a .22 to stop an > | attacking dog. > | > | Denna > | > | > | http://www.picantes.com/pitbull – The Real Pit Bull > | http://www.picantes.com/caleb – Come admire my puppy! > | http://www.picantes.com/windwolf – My art, pets, and twisted world > view
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>My dog’s breeder used to hunt mountain lions and bears for the State >California with a handgun (357 Magnum). He said you couldn’t use a >rifle and handle the dogs at the same time. He said you had to get them >in the right place to stop them.
That sounds a little strange to me, Richard. Anyway, you’d never find *me* hunting bear, even black bear (or a ML), with a .357 magnum *pistol.* And I don’t really understand why all this "handling" is needed — you let the hounds tree or corner the bear, etc., then you shoot it. Period. ?? — Dogman http://www.i1.net/~dogman For everything you’ve ever wanted to know about Jerry Howe and other trolls and scumbags, go here: http://www.i1.net/~dogman/trolls.html Nicholas Regush/ABC News column:Chronic Parasite Syndrome? Tiny Worms May Explain Mysterious Disease http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/living/secondopinion/secondopinio… "Advances are made by answering questions. Discoveries are made by questioning answers." Bernhard Haisch
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Thank you for taking the time to post; Staying in the dark never really makes the world go away; and that needed to be pointed out. Regards, B.j.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> obviously some folks here are not in total touch with todays reality. > as a street cop in alabama i had numerous run-ins with dopers with > mainly pits or rottie… NO-this does not mean that all owners of > those breeds are dopers etc- but unfortunately we have had to kill > more than one of them on raids, searches, and simple traffic stops. > the dumb-ass dopers think that we wont do our job simply because they > own-AND ABUSE- these animals. we are never happy to have to kill the > animals- it isnt their fault- but must admit that some of them are > definitely better off being out of their "home". i still remember the > horror of 5 officers having to shoot a pit more than 15 times to stop > it- and this was with .40 cal handguns and 12 gauge shotguns- the > scumbag owner had been giving the animal hits of cocaine and meth > along with its food. these lowlife owners have done for these breeds > what OJ Simpson did for Akita’s. Lord help us all…… >x-no-archive:yes >> All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by >> stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the >> street to avoid walking next to them, etc. >> When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the >> office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug >> stashes? >> Kyla, DVM >Now you have stepped over the line of common decency, and the line of >ignorance, that separates intelligent people from morons. >How dare you! >Are you saying you allow the owners of Pitbulls to smoke pot in your >office, too? >(ken)
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Frank Costa writes:
:If your lucky enough to place that one :shot in the head of a charging animal. :Have you ever fired a gun in a tense :situation? Especially a handgun? The guy’s post and follwup is more than enough evidence that shooting, which endangers everyone and everything in the vicinity, is a poor substitute for a couple of competent ACOs with a net. Meanwhile, the guy hasn’t even discussed what precipitated the entire event. JohnR Pit Bull Libertarian Never sneer at the power of a little pink squeaky toy!
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->My dog’s breeder used to hunt mountain lions and bears for the State >California with a handgun (357 Magnum). He said you couldn’t use a >rifle and handle the dogs at the same time. He said you had to get them >in the right place to stop them. > That sounds a little strange to me, Richard. > Anyway, you’d never find *me* hunting bear, even black bear (or a ML), > with a .357 magnum *pistol.* > And I don’t really understand why all this "handling" is needed — you > let the hounds tree or corner the bear, etc., then you shoot it. > Period. > ??
Well, the many photos I saw of him and the lion and bear carcasses indicate to me that that was his technique. He explained the tracking and killing procedure to me in detail, and being rather dense, I’ve forgotten some of it. If you’d like to talk to him personally, e-mail me and I’ll give you his number. He’s a fascinating old hunter with a large bank of knowledge of hunting, breeding, and training. I think you’d like him. Richard – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > Dogman > http://www.i1.net/~dogman > For everything you’ve ever wanted to know about Jerry Howe > and other trolls and scumbags, go here: > http://www.i1.net/~dogman/trolls.html > Nicholas Regush/ABC News column:Chronic Parasite Syndrome? Tiny Worms May Explain Mysterious Disease > http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/living/secondopinion/secondopinio… > "Advances are made by answering questions. Discoveries are made by > questioning answers." Bernhard Haisch
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> A dog can be killed with a single shot to the head with a .22 BUT I wouldn’t > fancy trying to aim accurately at a small frenzied moving target.
But, if they had 12 gauge shotguns like the original poster said, it really shouldn’t be TOO hard :^) Nic http://www.teleport.com/~pitbull -Meet the dogs! ICQ # 29857477 Do not walk behind me, for I may not lead. Do not walk ahead of me, for I may not follow. Do not walk beside me, either. Just leave me the hell alone.
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>My dog’s breeder used to hunt mountain lions and bears for the State >California with a handgun (357 Magnum). He said you couldn’t use a >rifle and handle the dogs at the same time. He said you had to get them >in the right place to stop them.
Yup and he’s shooting a treed animal , and as far as it goes quite a lot of folks used amd still use a 22 long rifle pistol for big cats. Without dogs you’ll need something a bit stouter , I used to shoot a few hogs with .357 .44 special and sundry other calibers , after a close call or two I nowadays stick to .44mag or the Casull.
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[...] >Yup and he’s shooting a treed animal , and as far as it goes quite a lot >of folks used >amd still use a 22 long rifle pistol for big cats.
Who…crazy people? I sure wouldn’t want my dogs to get killed or mauled by a wounded and pissed off bear or cougar that just fell out of a tree after being shot with a .22 LR PISTOL. .22 LR pistols are for close-up work. REAL close up. > Without dogs you’ll need something a bit stouter , I used to shoot a >few hogs with .357 >.44 special and sundry other calibers , after a close call or two I nowadays >stick to .44mag or the Casull.
There you go, Old Dog! .44 mag MINIMUM. This isn’t at all about being "sporting," it’s about making a QUICK and CLEAN kill. And then everyone else — including the dogs — going home safe and sound. :>) — Dogman http://www.i1.net/~dogman For everything you’ve ever wanted to know about Jerry Howe and other trolls and scumbags, go here: http://www.i1.net/~dogman/trolls.html Nicholas Regush/ABC News column:Chronic Parasite Syndrome? Tiny Worms May Explain Mysterious Disease http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/living/secondopinion/secondopinio… "Advances are made by answering questions. Discoveries are made by questioning answers." Bernhard Haisch
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>Who…crazy people?
Nope a WHOLE lot of oldtimers. >I sure wouldn’t want my dogs to get killed or mauled by a wounded and >pissed off bear or cougar that just fell out of a tree after being >shot with a .22 LR PISTOL.
Not BEAR Dogman , Cougar , and most often the cat sits there treed and looks calmly at the dogs , if cats are going to fight they most often do it *before* treeing , and iof they do so there usuallu isn’t a reason to go to tree because no matter WHAT *any* dogman tells you about ANY breed of dog there is NO dog that’s a match for a fullgrown cat. And I’ve seen quite a few tried , I’ve seen the idiots who have insisted on using a " catch dog" on a big cat after they’ve been warned. >.22 LR pistols are for close-up work. >REAL close up.
Yup that’s correct , and with a big cat you can most often walk right up and shoot them right through the head from quite close. Talk to some oldtime houndsmen and check it out for yourself. > Without dogs you’ll need something a bit stouter , I used to shoot a >few hogs with .357 >.44 special and sundry other calibers , after a close call or two I nowadays >stick to .44mag or the Casull. >There you go, Old Dog! >.44 mag MINIMUM.
.357 Maxx works well , and .357 mag works quite well with a 158 JSP if you have the time for spot and stalk , .44 special works better yet dur to the bigger slug even though it’s so slow as to telegraph ahead that it’s coming and stop for a cup of java on the way. .45 long colt is also quite efficient though oddly enough .45acp isn’t so hot. >This isn’t at all about being "sporting," it’s about making a QUICK >and CLEAN kill.
I never take the shot in the first place if it’s questionable. Want to feel REALLY alive and REALLY electric , try going into heavy bush after an ultra-large and very pissedoff hog that an idiot gutshoots after he was told to wait on and stalk the shot. Not a game I wish to play again. >And then everyone else — including the dogs — going home safe and >sound.
Thats why I very seldom hunt behind catch dogs anymore , prefering instead bay dogs with enough sense to mark and stay the hell out of the hogs clutches. I still have bad memories of carrying a guys bitch out over 3 or 4 miles of rough terrain with small intestine and omentum hanging over my arm and holding up two IV bags as we drove a hundred or better to yank the vet out of bed. And I think the individual in question will remember for the rest of his life what he got for being so stupid as to not call his dogs out when we told him to and for coing unprepared for dealing with the medical eventualities , if it hadn’t been for an oldtime houndsman that lived nearby the bitch wouldn’t have lived.
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>>Who…crazy people? >Nope a WHOLE lot of oldtimers.
Aah…CRAZY oldtimers? :>) >I sure wouldn’t want my dogs to get killed or mauled by a wounded and >pissed off bear or cougar that just fell out of a tree after being >shot with a .22 LR PISTOL. >Not BEAR Dogman, Cougar, and most often the cat sits there treed and >looks calmly at the dogs, if cats are going to fight they most often do it *before* treeing,
Well, a lot of that depends on the distance between the cat and the tree at the precise time the cat first hears the dogs, eh? >and iof they do so there usuallu isn’t a reason to go to tree because no matter WHAT *any* dogman >tells you about ANY breed of dog there is NO dog that’s a match for a fullgrown cat.
Hey, that’s what I’m trying to say here, OldDog. I just wouldn’t be taking any chances — if the dogs were MINE. Not only am I not crazy, I care a lot about my dogs. >And I’ve seen quite a few tried , I’ve seen the idiots who have insisted > on using a " catch dog" on a big cat after they’ve been warned.
Bet it was one of those CRAZY oldtimers, eh? >.22 LR pistols are for close-up work. >REAL close up. >Yup that’s correct , and with a big cat you can most often walk right up >and shoot them right through the head from quite close. Talk to some oldtime >houndsmen and check it out for yourself.
And if you don’t hit the cat in EXACTLY the right place, what then? Mauled or DEAD dogs, that’s what. No thanks. And I’ve never run into a better shot than myself, with either a pistol, rifle or shotgun. >>Without dogs you’ll need something a bit stouter , I used to shoot a >>few hogs with .357 .44 special and sundry other calibers , after a close call >> or two I nowadays stick to .44mag or the Casull. >There you go, Old Dog! >.44 mag MINIMUM. >.357 Maxx works well , and .357 mag works quite well with a 158 JSP if >you have the time for spot and stalk, .44 special works better yet dur > to the bigger slug even though it’s so slow as to telegraph ahead that > it’s coming and stop for a cup of java on the way. .45 long colt is also > quite efficient though oddly enough .45acp isn’t so hot.
All those calibers are fine for MANstoppers, but not so fine for BIG CAT/ BEARstoppers. Besides bullet type, it’s mostly about muzzle energy, and all those pistols you mentioned top out at around 400-500 ft.lbs. On the other hand, a dinky little .250 Savage rifle averages 1700-1800 ft.lbs., a .270 at around 2600, a .308 at around 2700, etc. I’ll take the rifle and stand a little further back, thank you very much. >This isn’t at all about being "sporting," it’s about making a QUICK >and CLEAN kill. >I never take the shot in the first place if it’s questionable.
But when you first realize that your dogs, or even yourself, just might be in danger, you take whatever shot you have — and pray. Old Marine Corps axiom — plan for the worst, hope for the best. >Want to feel REALLY alive and REALLY electric, try going into heavy bush after >an ultra-large and very pissedoff hog that an idiot gutshoots after he was >told to wait on and stalk the shot. Not a game I wish to play again.
I don’t blame you, OldDog, that’s why I always take enough gun along. With guns, more is usually better. >And then everyone else — including the dogs — going home safe and >sound. >Thats why I very seldom hunt behind catch dogs anymore, prefering instead >bay dogs with enough sense to mark and stay the hell out of the hogs clutches. I still have bad >memories of carrying a guys bitch out over 3 or 4 miles of rough terrain with >small intestine and omentum hanging over my arm and holding up two IV bags as we drove >a hundred or better to yank the vet out of bed. And I think >the individual in question will remember for the rest of his life what he >got for being so stupid as to not call his dogs out when we told him to and for coing > unprepared for dealing with the medical eventualities , if it hadn’t been for an oldtime > houndsman that lived nearby the bitch wouldn’t have lived.
I couldn’t agree with you more, OldDog! If I were ever to hunt cat or bear or hogs with dogs, there’s not one hog, bear or cat out there that’s worth the risk of losing one of *my* dogs. — Dogman http://www.i1.net/~dogman For everything you’ve ever wanted to know about Jerry Howe and other trolls and scumbags, go here: http://www.i1.net/~dogman/trolls.html Nicholas Regush/ABC News column:Chronic Parasite Syndrome? Tiny Worms May Explain Mysterious Disease http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/living/secondopinion/secondopinio… "Advances are made by answering questions. Discoveries are made by questioning answers." Bernhard Haisch
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> Olddog writes: > :I’ve seen the idiots who have insisted on > :using a " catch dog" on a big cat after they’ve > :been warned. > Wow. I’ve never seen what would happen > but have no difficulty envisioning it. > Some people, eh?
Those same "some people" go through an awful lot of dogs. 
Terri
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>Aah…CRAZY oldtimers? >:>)
Not quite as crazy as you might think. >Not BEAR Dogman, Cougar, and most often the cat sits there treed and >looks calmly at the dogs, if cats are going to fight they most often do it *before* treeing, >Well, a lot of that depends on the distance between the cat and the >tree at the precise time the cat first hears the dogs, eh?
I’ve *never* seen a cat jumped and tree instantly , when they hear the dogs they usually hotfoot it immediately and almost *nver* will fight unless cornered. >Hey, that’s what I’m trying to say here, OldDog. >I just wouldn’t be taking any chances — if the dogs were MINE. >Not only am I not crazy, I care a lot about my dogs.
Chance with a cat are minimal compared to chance with hogs or bear. >And I’ve seen quite a few tried , I’ve seen the idiots who have insisted > on using a " catch dog" on a big cat after they’ve been warned. >Bet it was one of those CRAZY oldtimers, eh?
Nope , they may be crazy but they’ve got horse-sense , more like complete idiots. >Yup that’s correct , and with a big cat you can most often walk right up >and shoot them right through the head from quite close. Talk to some oldtime >houndsmen and check it out for yourself. >And if you don’t hit the cat in EXACTLY the right place, what then?
If you can miss from twenty feet you shouldn’t be hunting. >Mauled or DEAD dogs, that’s what. >No thanks.
Problem is that there is the risk of the above *any* time you run game that can fight back with dogs , right on down to raccoons or sending a Terrier in after a ‘chuck. >And I’ve never run into a better shot than myself, with either a >pistol, rifle or shotgun.
hehehehehh , we got to get together and shoot some cans and things chuckle). No Bookers till after though. >.357 Maxx works well , and .357 mag works quite well with a 158 JSP if >you have the time for spot and stalk, .44 special works better yet dur > to the bigger slug even though it’s so slow as to telegraph ahead that > it’s coming and stop for a cup of java on the way. .45 long colt is also > quite efficient though oddly enough .45acp isn’t so hot. >All those calibers are fine for MANstoppers, but not so fine for BIG >CAT/ BEARstoppers.
Complete disagreement with you for once , cats simply aren’t that hard to stop. A bear yes but I’ll tell you .44special works fairly well and .45 Long Colt works almost as well as .44 mag an better than .41 mag , it carries a 300 grain right along at 1000 fps. >Besides bullet type, it’s mostly about muzzle energy, and all those >pistols you mentioned top out at around 400-500 ft.lbs.
Yup thats completely correct. >On the other hand, a dinky little .250 Savage rifle averages 1700-1800 >ft.lbs., a .270 at around 2600, a .308 at around 2700, etc.
All pretty close yes. >I’ll take the rifle and stand a little further back, thank you very >much.
Around here the cover is so heavy that standing back farther isn’t an option. >But when you first realize that your dogs, or even yourself, just >might be in danger, you take whatever shot you have — and pray.
This is correct , but I always do my level best to not put my dogs in a bad situation. >Old Marine Corps axiom — plan for the worst, hope for the best.
Always have , always do , corollary to the above , Optimistic Outlook , Pessimistic preparation. >>Want to feel REALLY alive and REALLY electric, try going into heavy bush after >an ultra-large and very pissedoff hog that an idiot gutshoots after he was >told to wait on and stalk the shot. Not a game I wish to play again. >I don’t blame you, OldDog, that’s why I always take enough gun along.
So do I nowadays…..(chuckle). >If I were ever to hunt cat or bear or hogs with dogs, there’s not one >hog, bear or cat out there that’s worth the risk of losing one of *my* >dogs.
Feel the same way , having lost dogs it’s not something I want to go through again , and having seen some other folks lose dogs in dramtic fashion I only hunt with folks that feel similar , I still feel very bad for one oldtimer who lost four dogs in about 20 seconds to a small female lion that *wouldn’t* tree ( very , very unusual) she killed the first three in three bites literally before we each got a round in her and killed the fourth Plott in her death throes. He hsn’t been the same since , especially since we were actually out to just tree the cat and then line the dogs back and go home not to shoot her. Bad scene , very bad scene.
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>> > Not BEAR Dogman , Cougar , and most often the cat sits there treed and > > looks calmly at the > > dogs , > And then some jackass shoots them. Why not let them be? > Kyla, DVM >I believe he stated he would shoot the cougar if him or his dog was in >danger. Wouldn’t that be rational, appropriate and necessary?
A *treed* Cougar isn’t much of a danger. — Carey Gregory
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, >A *treed* Cougar isn’t much of a danger. >– >Carey Gregory
WRONG , often they don’t do much but sit there , however the above is one of the most illinformed statements I’ve ever seen in this forum and shows quite clearly that you don’t know what the hell you are talking about.
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>> And then some jackass shoots them. Why not let them be? > Kyla, DVM
Oh YEAH , lets get RIGHT into this one Kyla , because you once again are talking about things you don’t have the slightest CLUE about. You need to learn a few things about the lion population in certain locales and what moratoriums on hunting have accomplished for said lions and the habitat they exist in.
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> WRONG , often they don’t do much but sit there , however the above is one >of the most illinformed >statements I’ve ever seen in this forum and shows quite clearly that you >don’t know what the hell >you are talking about.
Okay, I’m listening. Educate me on why a treed Cougar is such a threat that it needs to be killed. — Carey Gregory
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>>WRONG , often they don’t do much but sit there , however the above is one >of the most illinformed statements I’ve ever seen in this forum and shows quite clearly >that you don’t know what the hell you are talking about. >Okay, I’m listening. Educate me on why a treed Cougar is such a >threat that it needs to be killed.
Well, because that’s what hunting is, it’s the locating, and then the *killing* of another animal. Cows are no threat, and they don’t "need" to be killed, either — unless we intend to eat them, of course, which many of us do. Yummy! But the main reason that cougars and bears are hunted is that there are just too many of them in some areas of our country, and they’re encroaching dangerously on the areas where humans live — or vice versa, we’re encroaching on areas where they typically live. No, I’m not happy about that, Carey, but I don’t want to go around shooting humans instead — do you? So we thin out the herds of other animals instead, the ones that are competing with humans for space, habitat, etc. Or would you prefer that we just allow nearby cougars to drag off your neighbor’s daughter and kill her? When you’re hunting cougar (or bear, etc.) with dogs, the idea is to have the dogs "tree" the animal, making for a quick and clean shot for the hunter. Quick and clean = humane. That’s okay, you don’t have to like hunting, Carey, but it helps everyone concerned if you’ll just try to understand it a little. I even support the reintroduction of wolves into areas like Yellowstone Park, the Tetons, etc., too, because there is definitely a place for the predator in Nature. And the herds of elk and deer are getting out of hand, that is, they’re needlessly starving to death. On the other hand, I can also understand why ranchers and farmers are dead set against it — because they can lose a lot of livestock to wolves. So if you want to see the wolves return, too, be prepared to ante up to them the amount of money these folks are losing due to predation, okay? That seems fair to me, how ’bout you? — Dogman http://www.i1.net/~dogman For everything you’ve ever wanted to know about Jerry Howe and other trolls and scumbags, go here: http://www.i1.net/~dogman/trolls.html Nicholas Regush/ABC News column:Chronic Parasite Syndrome? Tiny Worms May Explain Mysterious Disease http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/living/secondopinion/secondopinio… "Advances are made by answering questions. Discoveries are made by questioning answers." Bernhard Haisch
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> I’ve always been somewhat against hunting. Every year at the same time > thousands of Marylanders throw on their "cammies" and grab their guns, > and off they go. I don’t like the idea of killing animals. > My opinion changed about DEER two months ago while driving Route 95, and > suddenly noticed one was about 200 feet ahead of me, standing in my > lane, as I drove 65-70 mph!
Yes, isn’t it interesting how opinions change depending on whose ox happens to be getting gored at the time? As for the good Dr., I do have to wonder if *her* child was mauled by a cougar, as has happened twice here within the past year, if *her* opinion of predator control might change just a tad? Skip — Skip and Christy Hensler THE ROCK GARDEN Newport, Wash. http://www.povn.com/rock
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Olddog writes:
:I’ve seen the idiots who have insisted on :using a " catch dog" on a big cat after they’ve :been warned. Wow. I’ve never seen what would happen but have no difficulty envisioning it. Some people, eh? JohnR Pit Bull Libertarian Never sneer at the power of a little pink squeaky toy!
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Don’t go there; She knows her stuff, and doesn’t shy from a challenge! B.J.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Is this a real post from Dr. Kyla. I really don’t like putting a Vet in > my kill file. > dw > > All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by > > stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the > > street to avoid walking next to them, etc. > > When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the > > office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug > > stashes? > > Kyla, DVM
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>This in itself is a ignorant statement, a blatant example of a biased >view towards vets. You’re a hypocrite.
The likes of YOU terming anybody at all a hypocrite is so ludicrously laughable as to be absolutely hysterical. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->| I suppose her opinion is rather ignorant then because most vets are >|totally >| ignorant about dog breeds.
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By far the most dangerous, agressive creature in the world is the human being! This entier thread has proven that; (As if we needed more evidence, ) lo these many millennia! B.J.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > she’s >certainly not ignorant of what her clients who own pitbulls are like. She >sees them in person. You are the one who is ignorant about what her >clients are like. When I saw patients at an emergency clinic in SF, CA, I >too saw a lot of pit bull owners come in smelling of pot > Bullshit , and don’t even bother attempting to argue about the Bay Area > and APBT owners > therein with me Hillary. You’ll find yourself way out of your depth. > and in fact one >time, an owner actually attempted to barter for services by offering the >receptionist an ounce of marijuana. Facts are facts. That’s not to say >that ALL pit bull owners are like that. > BUt you defend the fact that Kyla attempted to portray ALL owners as what > she claimed.Hypocrite. > Just that a certain number of the >ones I saw are, and that the ones at Kyla’s practice (all six of >them) apparently are. I see a large number of pit bulls here in West >Philly that are owned by completely "normal" seeming people; > Just as in the Bay Area , where thousands and thousands of NORMAL folks > own them. > I also see >some that are owned by people who wear red or blue to the extreme, lots of >gold jewelry, fancy new expensive sneakers, and drive mercedes and carry >cell phones. > ASSUming a great deal based upon dress and possessions are ya? > just the way it is here. Other breeds popular with this >group are rottweilers and…actually, I must say this particular subgroup >of our clientele generally has rotties or pits. But so do a lot of >suburban yuppies! > Then point out the suburban yuppies.
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> Who the heck is Dr. Kyla? What a lame thing to say…..
Someone on the vet groups , claiming Dr. status ,that I don’t EVEN want to go to with my dogs. I have to wonder about her; as I can’t imagine how she has so much time to post on Usenet. I’ll stick with my_ vet, thankyouverymuch. Terri
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This in itself is a ignorant statement, a blatant example of a biased view towards vets. You’re a hypocrite. | I suppose her opinion is rather ignorant then because most vets are |totally | ignorant about dog breeds.
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This reminded me of an incident here a few months ago. Late last fall, we babysat a friend’s dog while he visited his family, he was gone for about a month. The day after he came back, he and his dog were taking a walk down our street, just enjoying each other’s company, when he got stopped by the police. It seemed there was a bench warrant out on him. One of the cops started to put handcuffs on him and he said please don’t do it behind my back. The dog won’t like it. She ignored him, and the dog – a very large lab – gently grabbed her leg. The other cop said, well, he told you not to do that, there’s no reason to anyway. So she unlocked the cuffs, put them in front, and the dog let her go. And so we got our foster child back for another day until he went to court and got it straightened out. This has got to be one of the few places in the world where cops will accomodate a dog protecting his person, and then drop him off to be taken care of instead of taking him to the pound or just shooting him. OTOH, he didn’t actually bite her, just held her leg. One of a number of reasons I like it here. >Ah yes, the drug warriors "have" to kill dogs >bacause they "have" to raid homes and get >their quota of profile stops in every month. >JohnR >Pit Bull Libertarian >Never sneer at the power of a little >pink squeaky toy!
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!
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Karibear writes:
:This has got to be one of the few places :in the world where cops will accomodate :a dog protecting his person, and then drop :him off to be taken care of instead of taking :him to the pound or just shooting him. And the nice thing is that by being level- headed and reasonable, the cops themselves will no doubt be safer than if they acted like pillaging vikings. JohnR Pit Bull Libertarian Never sneer at the power of a little pink squeaky toy!
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she’s >certainly not ignorant of what her clients who own pitbulls are like. She >sees them in person. You are the one who is ignorant about what her >clients are like. When I saw patients at an emergency clinic in SF, CA, I >too saw a lot of pit bull owners come in smelling of pot
Bullshit , and don’t even bother attempting to argue about the Bay Area and APBT owners therein with me Hillary. You’ll find yourself way out of your depth. and in fact one >time, an owner actually attempted to barter for services by offering the >receptionist an ounce of marijuana. Facts are facts. That’s not to say >that ALL pit bull owners are like that.
BUt you defend the fact that Kyla attempted to portray ALL owners as what she claimed.Hypocrite. Just that a certain number of the >ones I saw are, and that the ones at Kyla’s practice (all six of >them) apparently are. I see a large number of pit bulls here in West >Philly that are owned by completely "normal" seeming people;
Just as in the Bay Area , where thousands and thousands of NORMAL folks own them. I also see >some that are owned by people who wear red or blue to the extreme, lots of >gold jewelry, fancy new expensive sneakers, and drive mercedes and carry >cell phones.
ASSUming a great deal based upon dress and possessions are ya? just the way it is here. Other breeds popular with this >group are rottweilers and…actually, I must say this particular subgroup >of our clientele generally has rotties or pits. But so do a lot of >suburban yuppies!
Then point out the suburban yuppies.
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>>She lives in Canada. Yes she’s a real vet. I daresay, however, that she’s >certainly not ignorant of what her clients who own pitbulls are like. She
I suppose her opinion is rather ignorant then because most vets are totally ignorant about dog breeds. They don’t go to school to learn about dog breeds and temperments, they go to school to learn about dog bodies and health…. Dogstar716 Come see Gunnars Life: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/Gunnar " I AM a lunatic, and I AM obsessed with this business" – Jerry Howe
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is >owned by > >> stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross >the > >> street to avoid walking next to them, et > >> When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up >>>the office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug > >> stashes? > >> Kyla, DVM > where the hell does this person live?? Talk about ignorance and >stereotyping. > who is this person anyway ? is this person a real DVM? > Not going to treat any of my dogs. >Hello Donna, >Excuse my post, I thought that your post was from marshall dermer, >our resident "behaviorist." J>>>
Thats OK I can see how the mistake was made. Donna Marshall Marshall’s American Bulldogs
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>>>She lives in Canada. Yes she’s a real vet. I daresay, however, that she’s >>certainly not ignorant of what her clients who own pitbulls are like. She >I suppose her opinion is rather ignorant then because most vets are totally >ignorant about dog breeds. They don’t go to school to learn about dog breeds >and temperments, they go to school to learn about dog bodies and health….
I have also noticed this, and that some Animal Control Officers and Shelter Workers also do not know or recognize the different breeds. I had an ACO visit the farm once to check on my dogs tags, he was going to cite me for my Black and Tan Coon Hound not having tags . The problem was I had no Coon Hound it was my Black and Tan Prize Nubian Billy Goat!. I had to literally walk him over to the goat and show him. I told him it’s a billy goat if it were a dog it has a dreadfully large tumor hanging between it’s legs. Donna Marshall Marshall’s American Bulldogs
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by >> stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the >> street to avoid walking next to them, etc. >> When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the >> office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug >> stashes? >> Kyla, DVM > where the hell does this person live?? Talk about ignorance and stereotyping. > who is this person anyway ? is this person a real DVM? > Not going to treat any of my dogs.
Hello Donna, Excuse my post, I thought that your post was from marshall dermer, our resident "behaviorist." J>>>
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by >> stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the >> street to avoid walking next to them, etc. >> When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the >> office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug >> stashes? >> Kyla, DVM > where the hell does this person live?? Talk about ignorance and stereotyping. > who is this person anyway ? is this person a real DVM? > Not going to treat any of my dogs.
You mean the dogs that you only punish their behaviors, and not them? Eh, doc? J>>> "Thus we should beware of clinging to vulgar opinions, and judge things by reason’s way, not by popular say." Montaigne Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Salvor Hardin If you cannot convince them, confuse them. H.S. Truman. ;~) DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… J>>> "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." Leo Tolstoy Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?: caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed. -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after. Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all. -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding. -Jerry Howe-
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*On the subject of Rotties – I have a friend with two massive and dangerously dog *and leash agressive Rotts, an intact male about 2 yrs. old, and a female about 1 [snip] *Anyway, he has asked me to help him train his dogs, and I’m not sure that training *will help that much…I’ve seen those dogs in action before. I won’t let my lab, I suggest right off the bat that you consider NOT working with these dogs if you are at all concerned about potential liability. One problem that I as a future general practicioner have been warned about is the potential for being successfully sued if I make recommendations (without seeking a consultation with a board-certified expert) about training or other methods of working with an aggressive dog, and the dog goes on to bite someone….guess who could be liable? So that is something to consider. If you try to help, and the dogs go out and attack someone, and the owner’s defense is "well, it’s not my fault, I had a trainer who said if I did xyz it would be ok…" then… My next suggestion is that these dogs should be wearing head collars (aka Promise collar, Gentle Leader, or other brands) at ALL times. These provide increased control of the snout and allow the handler to close the mouth quickly and easily. They stimulate the area at the top of the neck just behind the ears, which is a natural/instinctual pressure point which can cause the dog to relax and calm down and listen to the owner (this is where mom presses down to discipline the puppies). They work MUCH better than prong or pinch collars which attempt to deal with the problem by inflicting pain. These dogs sound like they need professional help, but I recognize that it isn’t always available. Perhaps you can find a vet who has some textbook material on working with dangerously aggressive dogs, who could offer some handouts or something. -h. — "uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est." upenn school of vet med class of 2000
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Is this a real post from Dr. Kyla. I really don’t like putting a Vet in my kill file. dw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by > stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the > street to avoid walking next to them, etc. > When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the > office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug > stashes? > Kyla, DVM
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Man, did you fall out of the tree when that monkey that whelped you dropped you for a banana? J>
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> x-no-archive:yes > All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by > stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the > street to avoid walking next to them, etc. > When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the > office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug > stashes? > Kyla, DVM > Now you have stepped over the line of common decency, and the line of > ignorance, that separates intelligent people from morons. > How dare you! > Are you saying you allow the owners of Pitbulls to smoke pot in your > office, too? > (ken)
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* *I must say its a sad time indeed when the dignity and reputation of a dog must *suffer at the hands of these people. I absolutely agree. *I am sure that there are people of this type out there, but *they are the exception not the rule. You’re probably right – although it seems that in Kyla’s neighborhood, there are a lot of stoners owning pit bulls. This really doesn’t surprise me as it is pretty common for people within a certain cultural group to share similar tastes in things, including pets. h. — "uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est." upenn school of vet med class of 2000
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Billie Jean Kunkel writes:
:Methinks you’ve written this one :a bit "tongue-in-cheek" :I hope I’m right. Well, there’s a first time for everything, eh? JohnR Pit Bull Libertarian Never sneer at the power of a little pink squeaky toy!
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[snip unrelated material] > It’s just the way it is here. Other breeds popular with this > group are rottweilers and…actually, I must say this particular subgroup > of our clientele generally has rotties or pits. But so do a lot of > suburban yuppies!
On the subject of Rotties – I have a friend with two massive and dangerously dog and leash agressive Rotts, an intact male about 2 yrs. old, and a female about 1 1/2 yrs. old. The female being the most aggressive. He had another incident with his dogs at a dog park yesterday, where they were getting along with the other dogs well enough (although very rough), but when it was time to leave and he leashed them at the gate and another intact, aggressive male dog, off leash and coming into the park, unrestrained by his idiot owner even after a warning and plea from my friend to please wait and let him get out with his Rotts before he let his dog loose….the loose male bit Jasmine on her flanks twice while Chris tried to hold back Davidson and calm Jasmine… Chris let Jasmine loose to defend herself….and that’s all she wrote. Anyway, he has asked me to help him train his dogs, and I’m not sure that training will help that much…I’ve seen those dogs in action before. I won’t let my lab, Jessie, anywhere near his dogs again because of a previous attack that luckily I was able to stem off because Jessie is such a GOOD dog and disengaged when I called him to and heeled with me to the house before any real damage was done. My plan of action: Sit, sit/stay, down, down/stay, come, heel. Using choke collar corrections (done right – with a quick snap upwards to create more of an interupting noise – not choke the dog) I may try a prong collar if a choke collar worked correctly doesn’t produce results. I’m not sure that we’ll get that far yet, or if the owner will commit what is required of his time and efforts, but this is where I’m starting unless I get better advise. My question for Rotty owners and owners of previously aggressive large dogs: What do you consider the best and safest methods of teaching the sit or down to nonsubmissive and leash aggressive dog types? Any good starting pointers for me? I have not had much training experience with that type of temperment and am researching methods that are different from training your run-of-the-mill dog. Thanks for any advise in advance. Morgan
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By the way Ken, If it wasn’t written tongue-in-chhek, what makes you think you would ever want to even try to stop junkies with pit-bulls attached from doing absolutely anything they feel like? I ……wouldn’t go there! B.J.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> x-no-archive:yes > All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by > stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the > street to avoid walking next to them, etc. > When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the > office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug > stashes? > Kyla, DVM > Now you have stepped over the line of common decency, and the line of > ignorance, that separates intelligent people from morons. > How dare you! > Are you saying you allow the owners of Pitbulls to smoke pot in your > office, too? > (ken)
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Methinks you’ve written this one a bit "tongue-in-cheek" I hope I’m right. B.J.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> x-no-archive:yes > All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by > stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the > street to avoid walking next to them, etc. > When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the > office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug > stashes? > Kyla, DVM > Now you have stepped over the line of common decency, and the line of > ignorance, that separates intelligent people from morons. > How dare you! > Are you saying you allow the owners of Pitbulls to smoke pot in your > office, too? > (ken)
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >* >*>> >*>> All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by >*>> stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the >*>> street to avoid walking next to them, etc. >*>> >* >*where the hell does this person live?? Talk about ignorance and stereotyping. >*who is this person anyway ? is this person a real DVM? >*Not going to treat any of my dogs. >She lives in Canada. Yes she’s a real vet. I daresay, however, that she’s >certainly not ignorant of what her clients who own pitbulls are like. She >sees them in person. You are the one who is ignorant about what her >clients are like. When I saw patients at an emergency clinic in SF, CA, I >too saw a lot of pit bull owners come in smelling of pot and in fact one >time, an owner actually attempted to barter for services by offering the >receptionist an ounce of marijuana. Facts are facts. That’s not to say >that ALL pit bull owners are like that. Just that a certain number of the >ones I saw are, and that the ones at Kyla’s practice (all six of >them) apparently are. I see a large number of pit bulls here in West >Philly that are owned by completely "normal" seeming people; I also see >some that are owned by people who wear red or blue to the extreme, lots of >gold jewelry, fancy new expensive sneakers, and drive mercedes and carry >cell phones. It’s just the way it is here. Other breeds popular with this >group are rottweilers and…actually, I must say this particular subgroup >of our clientele generally has rotties or pits. But so do a lot of >suburban yuppies!
I must say its a sad time indeed when the dignity and reputation of a dog must suffer at the hands of these people. I am sure that there are people of this type out there, but they are the exception not the rule. There have been vets who will not even see or treat a pit bull even if it is a loving family pet. "Dog is mans best friend and sometimes man is a dogs worst enemy." Donna
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*
*>> *>> All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by *>> stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the *>> street to avoid walking next to them, etc. *>> * *where the hell does this person live?? Talk about ignorance and stereotyping. *who is this person anyway ? is this person a real DVM? *Not going to treat any of my dogs. She lives in Canada. Yes she’s a real vet. I daresay, however, that she’s certainly not ignorant of what her clients who own pitbulls are like. She sees them in person. You are the one who is ignorant about what her clients are like. When I saw patients at an emergency clinic in SF, CA, I too saw a lot of pit bull owners come in smelling of pot and in fact one time, an owner actually attempted to barter for services by offering the receptionist an ounce of marijuana. Facts are facts. That’s not to say that ALL pit bull owners are like that. Just that a certain number of the ones I saw are, and that the ones at Kyla’s practice (all six of them) apparently are. I see a large number of pit bulls here in West Philly that are owned by completely "normal" seeming people; I also see some that are owned by people who wear red or blue to the extreme, lots of gold jewelry, fancy new expensive sneakers, and drive mercedes and carry cell phones. It’s just the way it is here. Other breeds popular with this group are rottweilers and…actually, I must say this particular subgroup of our clientele generally has rotties or pits. But so do a lot of suburban yuppies! -h. — "uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est." upenn school of vet med class of 2000
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>> All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by > stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the > street to avoid walking next to them, etc. > When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the > office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug > stashes? > Kyla, DVM
where the hell does this person live?? Talk about ignorance and stereotyping. who is this person anyway ? is this person a real DVM? Not going to treat any of my dogs.
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Who the heck is Dr. Kyla? What a lame thing to say….. Dogstar716 Come see Gunnars Life: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/Gunnar " I AM a lunatic, and I AM obsessed with this business" – Jerry Howe
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Don’t go there; She knows her stuff, and doesn’t shy from a challenge! B.J.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Is this a real post from Dr. Kyla. I really don’t like putting a Vet in > my kill file. > dw > > All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by > > stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the > > street to avoid walking next to them, etc. > > When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the > > office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug > > stashes? > > Kyla, DVM
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>This in itself is a ignorant statement, a blatant example of a biased >view towards vets. You’re a hypocrite.
The likes of YOU terming anybody at all a hypocrite is so ludicrously laughable as to be absolutely hysterical. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->| I suppose her opinion is rather ignorant then because most vets are >|totally >| ignorant about dog breeds.
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By far the most dangerous, agressive creature in the world is the human being! This entier thread has proven that; (As if we needed more evidence, ) lo these many millennia! B.J.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > she’s >certainly not ignorant of what her clients who own pitbulls are like. She >sees them in person. You are the one who is ignorant about what her >clients are like. When I saw patients at an emergency clinic in SF, CA, I >too saw a lot of pit bull owners come in smelling of pot > Bullshit , and don’t even bother attempting to argue about the Bay Area > and APBT owners > therein with me Hillary. You’ll find yourself way out of your depth. > and in fact one >time, an owner actually attempted to barter for services by offering the >receptionist an ounce of marijuana. Facts are facts. That’s not to say >that ALL pit bull owners are like that. > BUt you defend the fact that Kyla attempted to portray ALL owners as what > she claimed.Hypocrite. > Just that a certain number of the >ones I saw are, and that the ones at Kyla’s practice (all six of >them) apparently are. I see a large number of pit bulls here in West >Philly that are owned by completely "normal" seeming people; > Just as in the Bay Area , where thousands and thousands of NORMAL folks > own them. > I also see >some that are owned by people who wear red or blue to the extreme, lots of >gold jewelry, fancy new expensive sneakers, and drive mercedes and carry >cell phones. > ASSUming a great deal based upon dress and possessions are ya? > just the way it is here. Other breeds popular with this >group are rottweilers and…actually, I must say this particular subgroup >of our clientele generally has rotties or pits. But so do a lot of >suburban yuppies! > Then point out the suburban yuppies.
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> Who the heck is Dr. Kyla? What a lame thing to say…..
Someone on the vet groups , claiming Dr. status ,that I don’t EVEN want to go to with my dogs. I have to wonder about her; as I can’t imagine how she has so much time to post on Usenet. I’ll stick with my_ vet, thankyouverymuch. Terri
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This in itself is a ignorant statement, a blatant example of a biased view towards vets. You’re a hypocrite. | I suppose her opinion is rather ignorant then because most vets are |totally | ignorant about dog breeds.
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This reminded me of an incident here a few months ago. Late last fall, we babysat a friend’s dog while he visited his family, he was gone for about a month. The day after he came back, he and his dog were taking a walk down our street, just enjoying each other’s company, when he got stopped by the police. It seemed there was a bench warrant out on him. One of the cops started to put handcuffs on him and he said please don’t do it behind my back. The dog won’t like it. She ignored him, and the dog – a very large lab – gently grabbed her leg. The other cop said, well, he told you not to do that, there’s no reason to anyway. So she unlocked the cuffs, put them in front, and the dog let her go. And so we got our foster child back for another day until he went to court and got it straightened out. This has got to be one of the few places in the world where cops will accomodate a dog protecting his person, and then drop him off to be taken care of instead of taking him to the pound or just shooting him. OTOH, he didn’t actually bite her, just held her leg. One of a number of reasons I like it here. >Ah yes, the drug warriors "have" to kill dogs >bacause they "have" to raid homes and get >their quota of profile stops in every month. >JohnR >Pit Bull Libertarian >Never sneer at the power of a little >pink squeaky toy!
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Response:
Karibear writes:
:This has got to be one of the few places :in the world where cops will accomodate :a dog protecting his person, and then drop :him off to be taken care of instead of taking :him to the pound or just shooting him. And the nice thing is that by being level- headed and reasonable, the cops themselves will no doubt be safer than if they acted like pillaging vikings. JohnR Pit Bull Libertarian Never sneer at the power of a little pink squeaky toy!
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she’s >certainly not ignorant of what her clients who own pitbulls are like. She >sees them in person. You are the one who is ignorant about what her >clients are like. When I saw patients at an emergency clinic in SF, CA, I >too saw a lot of pit bull owners come in smelling of pot
Bullshit , and don’t even bother attempting to argue about the Bay Area and APBT owners therein with me Hillary. You’ll find yourself way out of your depth. and in fact one >time, an owner actually attempted to barter for services by offering the >receptionist an ounce of marijuana. Facts are facts. That’s not to say >that ALL pit bull owners are like that.
BUt you defend the fact that Kyla attempted to portray ALL owners as what she claimed.Hypocrite. Just that a certain number of the >ones I saw are, and that the ones at Kyla’s practice (all six of >them) apparently are. I see a large number of pit bulls here in West >Philly that are owned by completely "normal" seeming people;
Just as in the Bay Area , where thousands and thousands of NORMAL folks own them. I also see >some that are owned by people who wear red or blue to the extreme, lots of >gold jewelry, fancy new expensive sneakers, and drive mercedes and carry >cell phones.
ASSUming a great deal based upon dress and possessions are ya? just the way it is here. Other breeds popular with this >group are rottweilers and…actually, I must say this particular subgroup >of our clientele generally has rotties or pits. But so do a lot of >suburban yuppies!
Then point out the suburban yuppies.
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>>She lives in Canada. Yes she’s a real vet. I daresay, however, that she’s >certainly not ignorant of what her clients who own pitbulls are like. She
I suppose her opinion is rather ignorant then because most vets are totally ignorant about dog breeds. They don’t go to school to learn about dog breeds and temperments, they go to school to learn about dog bodies and health…. Dogstar716 Come see Gunnars Life: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/Gunnar " I AM a lunatic, and I AM obsessed with this business" – Jerry Howe
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is >owned by > >> stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross >the > >> street to avoid walking next to them, et > >> When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up >>>the office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug > >> stashes? > >> Kyla, DVM > where the hell does this person live?? Talk about ignorance and >stereotyping. > who is this person anyway ? is this person a real DVM? > Not going to treat any of my dogs. >Hello Donna, >Excuse my post, I thought that your post was from marshall dermer, >our resident "behaviorist." J>>>
Thats OK I can see how the mistake was made. Donna Marshall Marshall’s American Bulldogs
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>>>She lives in Canada. Yes she’s a real vet. I daresay, however, that she’s >>certainly not ignorant of what her clients who own pitbulls are like. She >I suppose her opinion is rather ignorant then because most vets are totally >ignorant about dog breeds. They don’t go to school to learn about dog breeds >and temperments, they go to school to learn about dog bodies and health….
I have also noticed this, and that some Animal Control Officers and Shelter Workers also do not know or recognize the different breeds. I had an ACO visit the farm once to check on my dogs tags, he was going to cite me for my Black and Tan Coon Hound not having tags . The problem was I had no Coon Hound it was my Black and Tan Prize Nubian Billy Goat!. I had to literally walk him over to the goat and show him. I told him it’s a billy goat if it were a dog it has a dreadfully large tumor hanging between it’s legs. Donna Marshall Marshall’s American Bulldogs
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by >> stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the >> street to avoid walking next to them, etc. >> When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the >> office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug >> stashes? >> Kyla, DVM > where the hell does this person live?? Talk about ignorance and stereotyping. > who is this person anyway ? is this person a real DVM? > Not going to treat any of my dogs.
Hello Donna, Excuse my post, I thought that your post was from marshall dermer, our resident "behaviorist." J>>>
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by >> stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the >> street to avoid walking next to them, etc. >> When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the >> office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug >> stashes? >> Kyla, DVM > where the hell does this person live?? Talk about ignorance and stereotyping. > who is this person anyway ? is this person a real DVM? > Not going to treat any of my dogs.
You mean the dogs that you only punish their behaviors, and not them? Eh, doc? J>>> "Thus we should beware of clinging to vulgar opinions, and judge things by reason’s way, not by popular say." Montaigne Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Salvor Hardin If you cannot convince them, confuse them. H.S. Truman. ;~) DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… J>>> "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." Leo Tolstoy Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?: caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed. -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after. Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all. -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding. -Jerry Howe-
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*On the subject of Rotties – I have a friend with two massive and dangerously dog *and leash agressive Rotts, an intact male about 2 yrs. old, and a female about 1 [snip] *Anyway, he has asked me to help him train his dogs, and I’m not sure that training *will help that much…I’ve seen those dogs in action before. I won’t let my lab, I suggest right off the bat that you consider NOT working with these dogs if you are at all concerned about potential liability. One problem that I as a future general practicioner have been warned about is the potential for being successfully sued if I make recommendations (without seeking a consultation with a board-certified expert) about training or other methods of working with an aggressive dog, and the dog goes on to bite someone….guess who could be liable? So that is something to consider. If you try to help, and the dogs go out and attack someone, and the owner’s defense is "well, it’s not my fault, I had a trainer who said if I did xyz it would be ok…" then… My next suggestion is that these dogs should be wearing head collars (aka Promise collar, Gentle Leader, or other brands) at ALL times. These provide increased control of the snout and allow the handler to close the mouth quickly and easily. They stimulate the area at the top of the neck just behind the ears, which is a natural/instinctual pressure point which can cause the dog to relax and calm down and listen to the owner (this is where mom presses down to discipline the puppies). They work MUCH better than prong or pinch collars which attempt to deal with the problem by inflicting pain. These dogs sound like they need professional help, but I recognize that it isn’t always available. Perhaps you can find a vet who has some textbook material on working with dangerously aggressive dogs, who could offer some handouts or something. -h. — "uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est." upenn school of vet med class of 2000
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Is this a real post from Dr. Kyla. I really don’t like putting a Vet in my kill file. dw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by > stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the > street to avoid walking next to them, etc. > When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the > office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug > stashes? > Kyla, DVM
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Man, did you fall out of the tree when that monkey that whelped you dropped you for a banana? J>
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> x-no-archive:yes > All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by > stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the > street to avoid walking next to them, etc. > When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the > office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug > stashes? > Kyla, DVM > Now you have stepped over the line of common decency, and the line of > ignorance, that separates intelligent people from morons. > How dare you! > Are you saying you allow the owners of Pitbulls to smoke pot in your > office, too? > (ken)
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* *I must say its a sad time indeed when the dignity and reputation of a dog must *suffer at the hands of these people. I absolutely agree. *I am sure that there are people of this type out there, but *they are the exception not the rule. You’re probably right – although it seems that in Kyla’s neighborhood, there are a lot of stoners owning pit bulls. This really doesn’t surprise me as it is pretty common for people within a certain cultural group to share similar tastes in things, including pets. h. — "uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est." upenn school of vet med class of 2000
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Billie Jean Kunkel writes:
:Methinks you’ve written this one :a bit "tongue-in-cheek" :I hope I’m right. Well, there’s a first time for everything, eh? JohnR Pit Bull Libertarian Never sneer at the power of a little pink squeaky toy!
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[snip unrelated material] > It’s just the way it is here. Other breeds popular with this > group are rottweilers and…actually, I must say this particular subgroup > of our clientele generally has rotties or pits. But so do a lot of > suburban yuppies!
On the subject of Rotties – I have a friend with two massive and dangerously dog and leash agressive Rotts, an intact male about 2 yrs. old, and a female about 1 1/2 yrs. old. The female being the most aggressive. He had another incident with his dogs at a dog park yesterday, where they were getting along with the other dogs well enough (although very rough), but when it was time to leave and he leashed them at the gate and another intact, aggressive male dog, off leash and coming into the park, unrestrained by his idiot owner even after a warning and plea from my friend to please wait and let him get out with his Rotts before he let his dog loose….the loose male bit Jasmine on her flanks twice while Chris tried to hold back Davidson and calm Jasmine… Chris let Jasmine loose to defend herself….and that’s all she wrote. Anyway, he has asked me to help him train his dogs, and I’m not sure that training will help that much…I’ve seen those dogs in action before. I won’t let my lab, Jessie, anywhere near his dogs again because of a previous attack that luckily I was able to stem off because Jessie is such a GOOD dog and disengaged when I called him to and heeled with me to the house before any real damage was done. My plan of action: Sit, sit/stay, down, down/stay, come, heel. Using choke collar corrections (done right – with a quick snap upwards to create more of an interupting noise – not choke the dog) I may try a prong collar if a choke collar worked correctly doesn’t produce results. I’m not sure that we’ll get that far yet, or if the owner will commit what is required of his time and efforts, but this is where I’m starting unless I get better advise. My question for Rotty owners and owners of previously aggressive large dogs: What do you consider the best and safest methods of teaching the sit or down to nonsubmissive and leash aggressive dog types? Any good starting pointers for me? I have not had much training experience with that type of temperment and am researching methods that are different from training your run-of-the-mill dog. Thanks for any advise in advance. Morgan
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By the way Ken, If it wasn’t written tongue-in-chhek, what makes you think you would ever want to even try to stop junkies with pit-bulls attached from doing absolutely anything they feel like? I ……wouldn’t go there! B.J.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> x-no-archive:yes > All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by > stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the > street to avoid walking next to them, etc. > When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the > office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug > stashes? > Kyla, DVM > Now you have stepped over the line of common decency, and the line of > ignorance, that separates intelligent people from morons. > How dare you! > Are you saying you allow the owners of Pitbulls to smoke pot in your > office, too? > (ken)
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Methinks you’ve written this one a bit "tongue-in-cheek" I hope I’m right. B.J.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> x-no-archive:yes > All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by > stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the > street to avoid walking next to them, etc. > When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the > office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug > stashes? > Kyla, DVM > Now you have stepped over the line of common decency, and the line of > ignorance, that separates intelligent people from morons. > How dare you! > Are you saying you allow the owners of Pitbulls to smoke pot in your > office, too? > (ken)
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >* >*>> >*>> All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by >*>> stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the >*>> street to avoid walking next to them, etc. >*>> >* >*where the hell does this person live?? Talk about ignorance and stereotyping. >*who is this person anyway ? is this person a real DVM? >*Not going to treat any of my dogs. >She lives in Canada. Yes she’s a real vet. I daresay, however, that she’s >certainly not ignorant of what her clients who own pitbulls are like. She >sees them in person. You are the one who is ignorant about what her >clients are like. When I saw patients at an emergency clinic in SF, CA, I >too saw a lot of pit bull owners come in smelling of pot and in fact one >time, an owner actually attempted to barter for services by offering the >receptionist an ounce of marijuana. Facts are facts. That’s not to say >that ALL pit bull owners are like that. Just that a certain number of the >ones I saw are, and that the ones at Kyla’s practice (all six of >them) apparently are. I see a large number of pit bulls here in West >Philly that are owned by completely "normal" seeming people; I also see >some that are owned by people who wear red or blue to the extreme, lots of >gold jewelry, fancy new expensive sneakers, and drive mercedes and carry >cell phones. It’s just the way it is here. Other breeds popular with this >group are rottweilers and…actually, I must say this particular subgroup >of our clientele generally has rotties or pits. But so do a lot of >suburban yuppies!
I must say its a sad time indeed when the dignity and reputation of a dog must suffer at the hands of these people. I am sure that there are people of this type out there, but they are the exception not the rule. There have been vets who will not even see or treat a pit bull even if it is a loving family pet. "Dog is mans best friend and sometimes man is a dogs worst enemy." Donna
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*
*>> *>> All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by *>> stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the *>> street to avoid walking next to them, etc. *>> * *where the hell does this person live?? Talk about ignorance and stereotyping. *who is this person anyway ? is this person a real DVM? *Not going to treat any of my dogs. She lives in Canada. Yes she’s a real vet. I daresay, however, that she’s certainly not ignorant of what her clients who own pitbulls are like. She sees them in person. You are the one who is ignorant about what her clients are like. When I saw patients at an emergency clinic in SF, CA, I too saw a lot of pit bull owners come in smelling of pot and in fact one time, an owner actually attempted to barter for services by offering the receptionist an ounce of marijuana. Facts are facts. That’s not to say that ALL pit bull owners are like that. Just that a certain number of the ones I saw are, and that the ones at Kyla’s practice (all six of them) apparently are. I see a large number of pit bulls here in West Philly that are owned by completely "normal" seeming people; I also see some that are owned by people who wear red or blue to the extreme, lots of gold jewelry, fancy new expensive sneakers, and drive mercedes and carry cell phones. It’s just the way it is here. Other breeds popular with this group are rottweilers and…actually, I must say this particular subgroup of our clientele generally has rotties or pits. But so do a lot of suburban yuppies! -h. — "uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est." upenn school of vet med class of 2000
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>> All 6 of the Pit Bulls that I see in my current practice is owned by > stoners who think the dogs are cool because other people cross the > street to avoid walking next to them, etc. > When they bring them in, the smoke cloud of marijuana stinks up the > office for a while. Maybe they have the dogs to protect their drug > stashes? > Kyla, DVM
where the hell does this person live?? Talk about ignorance and stereotyping. who is this person anyway ? is this person a real DVM? Not going to treat any of my dogs.
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Who the heck is Dr. Kyla? What a lame thing to say….. Dogstar716 Come see Gunnars Life: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/Gunnar " I AM a lunatic, and I AM obsessed with this business" – Jerry Howe
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