Fighting
Question:
Diane, As you may have seen in my other posts, we did contact a trainer and will gladly invest the needed money. It struck me as odd that all along they’ve been best of friends then suddenly it’s fight-o-rama. The common factor seems to be all fighting takes place near the doberman’s bed in the corner of the living room. Moving it upstairs may help and we’re hoping the trainer has some ideas as well. They were friends but something has changed. Thanks, Steve
Response:
Lori, I can certainly move her bed to another, one that isn’t so public. Muzzling and crating aren’t out of the question but we have contacted a good trainer and will go that way first. Right now we’re keeping them seperated till things calm down a bit. Thanks, Steve
Response:
>Diane, >As you may have seen in my other posts, we did contact a trainer and >will gladly invest the needed money. It struck me as odd that all along >they’ve been best of friends then suddenly it’s fight-o-rama.
Not so odd, Steve. Diane is pretty savvy in dog experience, dog language obversations, and a lot_better than I at words, but your words were that the Dobe was 13 months old. It’s a common age for some specfici larger breeds to start maturing and if they’re prone to, start crossing those lines of submission previously established. The common >factor seems to be all fighting takes place near the doberman’s bed in >the corner of the living room.
Makes sense to me. The Dobe’s bed is HER place and territory. And, she’s no longer a puppy and beginning to assert her place in the pack. Moving it upstairs may help and we’re >hoping the trainer has some ideas as well.
Me too! They were friends but >something has changed.
Yup. Growing maturity on the Dobe’s part. It’s a common joke for those of us with slowly maturing breeds that they usually don’t get their brains in the mail until they’re sometimes 3-4 years old. And even then, we sometimes get an even slower maturer like one of my GSDs, who, at 5 years old or so, have some of their brains lost in the lost mail department! Listen a bit more to Diane, if you will. She’s no novice, trust me on this. Terri Who has 2; 5 yr. old GSDs now, (3 months apart); and the elder now has a torn ear due to a fight over a water sprinkler. Mojo, the younger, finally decided to fight back instead of submit.
Response:
I will certainly entertain any and all ideas/suggestions from Diane and anyone else. Last night we chatted with a trainer with whom we’ve worked via phone and she said it may be something they never get over and we might have to consider always keeping them apart or, and this is the last resort, giving the Dobe back to the rescue. We have another trainer coming to visit tomorrow night to observe so we’re keeping our fingers crossed. As hopeful as we are, we’ll do what’s best for both and if that means placing the Dobe in a new home then that’s what we’ll do. It’s funny though, I’ve had multiple dogs all my life and all have been females. We’ve never ever had anything like what happened Monday night. I guess in dogs as in chemistry if you mix random combinations long enough, you eventually get a big bang. Steve
Response:
> Here’s the scenario: > Last two days the dogs have had some tremendous fights over what seems to be > the Doberman’s sleeping area so it must be a territorial issue. I’m not > talking just a snarling festival, it’s two dogs at each others throat. The > Lab is large, around 100 lbs and muscular so right now I have a Doberman > with a fat lip, a hunk of skin missing from the top of her head and a > swollen paw. I tend to believe the Lab has been more lucky than good but > that’s no consolation. > What I’m wondering is; should I let them just settle the issue in their own > way or, continue to break-up the fights which is much easier said than done?
Sorry, this is not the kind of fighting that gets usually gets worked out. Bitch fights can be the absolute worst and their rarely get better. When you have two bitches that don’t like each other (or one doesn’t like the other) the chances of them being safe together unsupervised is small. Some people are successful with training and management – just so long as the bitches are not unsupervised together. > I think the battle damage to the Dobe is done when I get involved and get > one under control before the other. When I get involved they’re basically at > a stand-off with a mouth full of each others skin so I’m not certain I ought > to get involved.
I suppose that is possible. That’s one of the advantages of being there – seeing what is going on is much better than trying to figure it out frm a written description. > This will end right? The Lab and her original companion tangled at first but > not to this magnitude but, in all fairness, the other dog was much smaller > so it may have been a matter of scale.
Was that dog male or female? I think that it is well worth spending $100 or so to have someone give you a full consultation and assessment. I’d certainly like to think that with some handling adjustments you could get them to end up being friends. I’m just not very confident of that outcome. > Well, I’m off to the vet to get the Doberman repaired. Thanks in advance for > any assistance.
Some bitches do get along, but the best chances are always with opposite sexes. Diane Blackman http://www.dog-play.com http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html Join the coalition to ban dihydrogen monoxide! http://dbhs.wvusd.k12.ca.us/Humor/Dihydogen-monoxide.html
Response:
why on earth did you get another female?? .. especially a doberman .. most of the larger working breeds are same sex aggressive .. a male would have been preferrential .. you think it’s bad now .. just wait another 5 months when the doberman starts maturing .. these dogs may never be kept together .. call a professional .. after a fight like you have described i cannot see it working .. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Here’s the scenario: >We have a 9 year old female Lab who lost her companion to old age and was >moping around. We went to the local Doberman rescue and got her a new >"friend" after a careful "interview" process and for the past 6 weeks >they’ve been best friends running, wrestling and playing. The Doberman is >female, 13 months old, super-intelligent and great around us. >Last two days the dogs have had some tremendous fights over what seems to be >the Doberman’s sleeping area so it must be a territorial issue. I’m not >talking just a snarling festival, it’s two dogs at each others throat. The >Lab is large, around 100 lbs and muscular so right now I have a Doberman >with a fat lip, a hunk of skin missing from the top of her head and a >swollen paw. I tend to believe the Lab has been more lucky than good but >that’s no consolation. >What I’m wondering is; should I let them just settle the issue in their own >way or, continue to break-up the fights which is much easier said than done? >I think the battle damage to the Dobe is done when I get involved and get >one under control before the other. When I get involved they’re basically at >a stand-off with a mouth full of each others skin so I’m not certain I ought >to get involved. >This will end right? The Lab and her original companion tangled at first but >not to this magnitude but, in all fairness, the other dog was much smaller >so it may have been a matter of scale. >Well, I’m off to the vet to get the Doberman repaired. Thanks in advance for >any assistance. >Steve
Response:
Margaret, Yes, she’s spayed and until yesterday there were no problems at all. I expected some degree of contention for territory at first but not after six weeks. We’ll see how it goes. Thanks, Steve
Response:
We’ve always had females and never had any problems of any kind. The Doberman Rescue person also had no problem with us having two large females. We’ve contacted a reputable trainer who makes house calls so before I call it a lost cause, we’ll give the trainer a shot…so to speak. Thanks, Steve
Response:
Is your Doberman spayed? If not, there may be behavioral changes related to hormonal changes. Is there some reason, the rescue people didn’t recommend a male for you given that you had a female already? I have found that bitches fighting is one of the most difficult problems to deal with (I have Chows) and separation is the only solution. Other breeds seem to be able to live together even if they are the same sex! 
M
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Here’s the scenario: > We have a 9 year old female Lab who lost her companion to old age and was > moping around. We went to the local Doberman rescue and got her a new > "friend" after a careful "interview" process and for the past 6 weeks > they’ve been best friends running, wrestling and playing. The Doberman is > female, 13 months old, super-intelligent and great around us. > Last two days the dogs have had some tremendous fights over what seems to be > the Doberman’s sleeping area so it must be a territorial issue. I’m not > talking just a snarling festival, it’s two dogs at each others throat. The > Lab is large, around 100 lbs and muscular so right now I have a Doberman > with a fat lip, a hunk of skin missing from the top of her head and a > swollen paw. I tend to believe the Lab has been more lucky than good but > that’s no consolation. > What I’m wondering is; should I let them just settle the issue in their own > way or, continue to break-up the fights which is much easier said than done? > I think the battle damage to the Dobe is done when I get involved and get > one under control before the other. When I get involved they’re basically at > a stand-off with a mouth full of each others skin so I’m not certain I ought > to get involved. > This will end right? The Lab and her original companion tangled at first but > not to this magnitude but, in all fairness, the other dog was much smaller > so it may have been a matter of scale. > Well, I’m off to the vet to get the Doberman repaired. Thanks in advance for > any assistance. > Steve
Response:
Here’s the scenario: We have a 9 year old female Lab who lost her companion to old age and was moping around. We went to the local Doberman rescue and got her a new "friend" after a careful "interview" process and for the past 6 weeks they’ve been best friends running, wrestling and playing. The Doberman is female, 13 months old, super-intelligent and great around us. Last two days the dogs have had some tremendous fights over what seems to be the Doberman’s sleeping area so it must be a territorial issue. I’m not talking just a snarling festival, it’s two dogs at each others throat. The Lab is large, around 100 lbs and muscular so right now I have a Doberman with a fat lip, a hunk of skin missing from the top of her head and a swollen paw. I tend to believe the Lab has been more lucky than good but that’s no consolation. What I’m wondering is; should I let them just settle the issue in their own way or, continue to break-up the fights which is much easier said than done? I think the battle damage to the Dobe is done when I get involved and get one under control before the other. When I get involved they’re basically at a stand-off with a mouth full of each others skin so I’m not certain I ought to get involved. This will end right? The Lab and her original companion tangled at first but not to this magnitude but, in all fairness, the other dog was much smaller so it may have been a matter of scale. Well, I’m off to the vet to get the Doberman repaired. Thanks in advance for any assistance. Steve
Response:
You could try squirting them with a squirt gun or spray bottle when they even so much as look at each other, or throw an empty soda can with a few pennies in it at them. But you have to do it anonymously so they don’t see you doing it, otherwise they’ll relate it to you instead of thinking the sky is falling, which is what you want them to think. You could try muzzling them until they work out their differences, at least that way they can still carry on but not bite each other. They should probably be allowed to work it out on their own, but you can at least make it safer for them to do so. Can you remove the dobe’s sleeping area (is it a dog bed, or what?) that you think is causing the territory issues? Good luck! — Lori in Peoria – Happy Hound Bakery at Happy Hound Hollow Family stuff: http://www.geocities.com/reynoldsfamily_2000/ Happy Hound Hollow Sighthound Rescue: http://www.geocities.com/happyhoundhollow
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Here’s the scenario: > We have a 9 year old female Lab who lost her companion to old age and was > moping around. We went to the local Doberman rescue and got her a new > "friend" after a careful "interview" process and for the past 6 weeks > they’ve been best friends running, wrestling and playing. The Doberman is > female, 13 months old, super-intelligent and great around us. > Last two days the dogs have had some tremendous fights over what seems to be > the Doberman’s sleeping area so it must be a territorial issue. I’m not > talking just a snarling festival, it’s two dogs at each others throat. The > Lab is large, around 100 lbs and muscular so right now I have a Doberman > with a fat lip, a hunk of skin missing from the top of her head and a > swollen paw. I tend to believe the Lab has been more lucky than good but > that’s no consolation. > What I’m wondering is; should I let them just settle the issue in their own > way or, continue to break-up the fights which is much easier said than done? > I think the battle damage to the Dobe is done when I get involved and get > one under control before the other. When I get involved they’re basically at > a stand-off with a mouth full of each others skin so I’m not certain I ought > to get involved. > This will end right? The Lab and her original companion tangled at first but > not to this magnitude but, in all fairness, the other dog was much smaller > so it may have been a matter of scale. > Well, I’m off to the vet to get the Doberman repaired. Thanks in advance for > any assistance. > Steve
Response:
>They way they attach to each other’s throat makes me >think it might be a death match, or at the very least end up with one >seriously injured. Anyone have any suggestions?
I also have a problem with fighting (one of my dogs is dog-aggressive) – see my follow-up to Allison. I wouldn’t presume to state absolutely that they’re trying to renegotiate pack ordering (~2 years is a common age for that), but that would be my guess. Absolutely do *not* let them fight – one or both could be hurt. As for severity, if you’ve got repeated bloodshed then I think it’s serious, but Ian Dunbar, who’s done a lot of good work on aggression between dogs, tends to evaluate in terms of the number of visits to the vet and the ratio of vet visits to fights. One thing that I’ve found very helpful is to keep notes – when the fight started, where they were, and what set it off. A log will be particularly useful if you decide to seek professional help. — If you send me harassing email, I’ll probably post it
Response:
Hello melinda,
>They way they attach to each other’s throat makes me >think it might be a death match, or at the very least end up with one >seriously injured. Anyone have any suggestions? > I also have a problem with fighting (one of my dogs is dog-aggressive) –
Well, tell us exactly HOWE we can get the same excellent results? > see my follow-up to Allison.
I saw something about trade tarriffs and steel. > I wouldn’t presume to state absolutely that they’re trying to renegotiate
pack ordering That’d be because of mishandling. > (~2 years is a common age for that),
No, two is common for dogs to turn on their handlers for mishandling them, and that’s HOWE COME they’re having sibling rivalry. > but that would be my guess.
Then get the heel outta here, you don’t understand enough about dogs and behavior to afford a GUESS, cause you don’t have INFORMATION to guess about. > Absolutely do *not* let them fight – one or both could be hurt.
Duh-Oh! > As for severity,
IRRELEVANT. Except that’ll fuel your fear to cause you to HURT the dog. > if you’ve got repeated bloodshed then I think it’s serious,
You’re SMART! > but Ian Dunbar,
Is incompetent when it comes to dog aggression problems. > who’s done a lot of good work on aggression between dogs,
That so? "I also have a problem with fighting (one of my dogs is dog-aggressive) -" and you recommend dunbar, isn’t that correct, college kid? > tends to evaluate in terms of the number of visits to the vet and the
ratio of vet visits to fights. My GOD! What kind of idiocy is that?? I told you dunbar’s a blowhard, and this proves it. > One thing that I’ve found very helpful is to keep notes –
Yeah? We got all the goddamned notes you need right here in our archives. You and your lying dog abusing Thug pals hurt and kill dogs cause you’re NITWITS. > when the fight started, where they were, and what set it off.
And you’ll do what, compare visits to the emergency room? Get outa here with your doubletalk. > A log will be particularly useful if you decide to seek professional help.
Like dunbar? He won’t train a dog fighter with a history of fighting cause he don’t know HOWE. BWWWAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! > Melinda Shore –
"If you talk with the animals, they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them, you will not know them, and what you do not know you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." Chief Dan George message – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I read up on rotties, pitbulls, etc., and quite a bit > of the literature suggested I needed to assert my > dominance and "make the dog earn everything it gets." > I tried this once or twice, just by taking a stern tone > of voice, and the results were terrible. > The pup got scared and just wanted to stay away from > me. That’s why I support Jerry Howe and his FREE > Wits’ End Dog Training manual — that and the fact > that Jerry is an all-around great guy. > The core takeaway I got from Jerry’s manual is this: > make yourself the center of your puppy’s world – > – his personal Lord Jesus. Never give him a reason > to fear you or think you’re angry. Love the heck > out of him, and you’ll end up with a great dog. > This has truly worked with my puppy. She’ll do > anything I want her to, if she understands, because > she trusts me 100 percent, and nothing is more > important in her world than her relationship > with me. http://www.geocities.com/viscouspuppy > Charlie
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We have two male toy poodles that are 2 years old. They are brothers from > the same litter and have both been neutered. They have always had a > love/hate relationship but generally are best friends and can’t stand > being > separated. Over the past several months things have become increasingly > violent. It will usually start as a game of tug-o-war or argument over a > certain toy and before you know it they are at each other’s throats, > literally. They’re wrestling across the room, actually knocking things > over, very vicious. We have to physically pull them apart, sometimes > actually prying their jaws apart to get them to let go. There is usually > blood, sometimes a lot, and even after we pull them apart we have to keep > them separated. An hour later they’re best friends again. They are > normally extremely gentle and loving and have never showed any violent > behavior to any other animal (except the occasional bird or squirrel) or > person. It seems to me they’re finally trying to establish the pecking > order and determine who is the alpha dog, and has occurred to me that one > of > these days we’ll just have to let them fight it out. Do we? Will one > eventually submit? They way they attach to each other’s throat makes me > think it might be a death match, or at the very least end up with one > seriously injured. Anyone have any suggestions? > Thanks, > Travis > Hi Travis, > I read in a dog behaviour book that in a situation like this , the owner > (as the pack leader) has to decide the pecking order. You have to choose one > and elevate his status, greet him first when you come home and feed him > first.
BUNK. > It doesn’t sound fair but if they both accept this , it will stop the > fights getting out of hand. > Alison
– this is michael reporting live… http://dogtv.com with guest star Kwame Brown http://dogtv.com/kwame.jpg WORLD PREMIERE From homeless to World Famous Kwame Brown http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm
Response:
> I read in a dog behaviour book that in a situation like this , the owner >(as the pack leader) has to decide the pecking order.
That’s just wrong. First, the alpha doesn’t decide the ordering of the rest of the pack, and second, you’re not a dog. In fact, if you start disrupting the pack order by elevating a lower dog over a higher dog it’s going to create unnecessary problems. You need to figure out what the dogs have decided and respect that while maintaining leader status yourself. I’ve got a dog that fights with the other three, and I’ve been able to improve things a lot by 1) not allowing aggressive gestures among the dogs, 2) any dog that fights gets punished, not just the one who started it (it takes two [or more!] to fight), 3) avoiding situations I know will likely lead to problems, 4) and most of all, respecting the dog pack. Note that I have Siberian Huskies, and while it’s not at all an aggressive breed does tend to be a breed that worries a bit more than average about pack structure. Also, when I say "punish" I don’t mean hitting or physical intimidation, but timeouts, etc. As I said, things are much better, but I don’t believe that Saber will ever be completely trustworthy. — If you send me harassing email, I’ll probably post it
Response:
Lemme know on this one… I have a standard poodle and a collie mix (both neutered males) who get into it about once every six months, and growl and snarl at each other the rest of the time. I’m pretty sure it’s a dominance thing that hasn’t been worked out (who’s the "alpha"), but like you, I’m afraid to let ‘em fight it out because they’re both fairly big dogs capable of inflicting serious damage to each other. — Morris Lee
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We have two male toy poodles that are 2 years old. They are brothers from > the same litter and have both been neutered. They have always had a > love/hate relationship but generally are best friends and can’t stand being > separated. Over the past several months things have become increasingly > violent. It will usually start as a game of tug-o-war or argument over a > certain toy and before you know it they are at each other’s throats, > literally. They’re wrestling across the room, actually knocking things > over, very vicious. We have to physically pull them apart, sometimes > actually prying their jaws apart to get them to let go. There is usually > blood, sometimes a lot, and even after we pull them apart we have to keep > them separated. An hour later they’re best friends again. They are > normally extremely gentle and loving and have never showed any violent > behavior to any other animal (except the occasional bird or squirrel) or > person. It seems to me they’re finally trying to establish the pecking > order and determine who is the alpha dog, and has occurred to me that one of > these days we’ll just have to let them fight it out. Do we? Will one > eventually submit? They way they attach to each other’s throat makes me > think it might be a death match, or at the very least end up with one > seriously injured. Anyone have any suggestions? > Thanks, > Travis
Response:
Hi Travis/Alison,
> Hi Travis, > I read in a dog behaviour book that in a situation like this , the owner > (as the pack leader) has to decide the pecking order. You have to choose one > and elevate his status, greet him first when you come home and feed him > first. It doesn’t sound fair but if they both accept this , it will stop the > fights getting out of hand. > Alison
Good point, but I’d say this is probably a learned behaviour, but i could be wrong. When my husband was around (bless ‘im), he taught my two girls (mother and daughter) to take that little grumble through to a full out battle. He’d yell at them to stop, or tug at their collar. I asked him not to, but did he listen…. not on your nelly, until one day he put his leg in direct line of fire and got it bit. He didn’t interfere after that and eventually admitted that ‘distraction and praise’ works best. If it were a status thingy? I’d personally look first to elevate all human pack members status. (Please see below – pasted from another thread) Best regards, Marilyn P.S. Have they had a hair cut recently? Jerry’s Family Pack exercise is where I’d start, then use a method of training that doesn’t include reprimand. Top Dog may demand quality ’space’: I’d say a high ranking dog would have he’s own bed (where no one else can sleep), yet he can sleep anywhere – (including your chair, your bed). He’d probably enjoy a higher position than the rest of the pack. Deliberately place your belongings in his bed, and then take them back. Stand or sit in his bed. Don’t let him on chairs or beds. (Rather than telling him ‘off’ once he’s there, distract and praise him ‘before’ he approaches) Be consistent! (Annoying as it may be if you miss what you’re watching on TV, determinedly let him know that his place (space) is ‘not’ within yours). Top dog may insist on entering and investigating first: When you approach a door or throughway, don’t let him think it’s his responsibility/right to ‘check the way/explore the ground’ first. .. If he tries to nudge through the door before you, slam it closed and say ‘BACK’ .. (careful not to touch him with the door).. Repeat until he takes a few paces back . walk through ahead, and call him on after. Top Dog may groom the rest of the pack: It may be a good idea for everyone in family to groom him every day – teach him to ’stand’ whilst grooming. Top Dog may always take possession: Teach the concept of sharing (Hold, Drop and Gently) – Move on to retrieve – then tug, where you mostly win the prize. Top Dog may eats first, or dictate when he eats – and not allow others to steal his food or belongings: Prepare his food with him watching.. Leave it high where he can’t reach – then you eat a biscuit or sandwich. After a few moments, before feeding, hold up the food bowl, instruct to sit/stay for 2 minutes. Top Dog may demand attention and initiate work & play: If he demands play – brings a toy and barks, ignore completely until he’s dropped the toy and given up on the idea. Then, go to the toy and ‘you’ initiate play. Work with him at least once a day – heel/sit/stay/retrieve/recall. If he barks at times of the day you usually work/play/walk/feed), ignore him (don’t shout to stop). wait for at least 5 minutes after barking stops before you do whatever it was time to do. He will probably figure out your daily routine, . but it’s not his job to run the diary – it’s ours). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We have two male toy poodles that are 2 years old. They are brothers from > the same litter and have both been neutered. They have always had a > love/hate relationship but generally are best friends and can’t stand > being > separated. Over the past several months things have become increasingly > violent. It will usually start as a game of tug-o-war or argument over a > certain toy and before you know it they are at each other’s throats, > literally. They’re wrestling across the room, actually knocking things > over, very vicious. We have to physically pull them apart, sometimes > actually prying their jaws apart to get them to let go. There is usually > blood, sometimes a lot, and even after we pull them apart we have to keep > them separated. An hour later they’re best friends again. They are > normally extremely gentle and loving and have never showed any violent > behavior to any other animal (except the occasional bird or squirrel) or > person. It seems to me they’re finally trying to establish the pecking > order and determine who is the alpha dog, and has occurred to me that one > of > these days we’ll just have to let them fight it out. Do we? Will one > eventually submit? They way they attach to each other’s throat makes me > think it might be a death match, or at the very least end up with one > seriously injured. Anyone have any suggestions? > Thanks, > Travis
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We have two male toy poodles that are 2 years old. They are brothers from > the same litter and have both been neutered. They have always had a > love/hate relationship but generally are best friends and can’t stand being > separated. Over the past several months things have become increasingly > violent. It will usually start as a game of tug-o-war or argument over a > certain toy and before you know it they are at each other’s throats, > literally. They’re wrestling across the room, actually knocking things > over, very vicious. We have to physically pull them apart, sometimes > actually prying their jaws apart to get them to let go. There is usually > blood, sometimes a lot, and even after we pull them apart we have to keep > them separated. An hour later they’re best friends again. They are > normally extremely gentle and loving and have never showed any violent > behavior to any other animal (except the occasional bird or squirrel) or > person. It seems to me they’re finally trying to establish the pecking > order and determine who is the alpha dog, and has occurred to me that one of > these days we’ll just have to let them fight it out. Do we? Will one > eventually submit? They way they attach to each other’s throat makes me > think it might be a death match, or at the very least end up with one > seriously injured. Anyone have any suggestions? > Thanks, > Travis
Hi Travis, I read in a dog behaviour book that in a situation like this , the owner (as the pack leader) has to decide the pecking order. You have to choose one and elevate his status, greet him first when you come home and feed him first. It doesn’t sound fair but if they both accept this , it will stop the fights getting out of hand. Alison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
We have two male toy poodles that are 2 years old. They are brothers from the same litter and have both been neutered. They have always had a love/hate relationship but generally are best friends and can’t stand being separated. Over the past several months things have become increasingly violent. It will usually start as a game of tug-o-war or argument over a certain toy and before you know it they are at each other’s throats, literally. They’re wrestling across the room, actually knocking things over, very vicious. We have to physically pull them apart, sometimes actually prying their jaws apart to get them to let go. There is usually blood, sometimes a lot, and even after we pull them apart we have to keep them separated. An hour later they’re best friends again. They are normally extremely gentle and loving and have never showed any violent behavior to any other animal (except the occasional bird or squirrel) or person. It seems to me they’re finally trying to establish the pecking order and determine who is the alpha dog, and has occurred to me that one of these days we’ll just have to let them fight it out. Do we? Will one eventually submit? They way they attach to each other’s throat makes me think it might be a death match, or at the very least end up with one seriously injured. Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks, Travis
Response:
Hello Travis,
> We have two male toy poodles that are 2 years old. They are brothers from > the same litter and have both been neutered.
You was afraid they’d copulate and have an unwanted littler of puppies? Or do you ordinarily leave your dogs to run the neighborhood unsupervised? > They have always had a love/hate relationship
That’s mishandling, not their relationship. Sibling rivalry is CAUSED by mishandling. > but generally are best friends and can’t stand being separated.
That too, is problematical as this demonstrates a lack of confidence and insecurity which is responsible for their fighting… as is the added benefit of being neutered contributing to their lack of self confidence which provokes them to fight. Sounds contradictory, but that’s nothin new to Jerry and his students. There’s not much in this dog behavior business that Jerry hasn’t proven DEAD WRONG. > Over the past several months things have become increasingly violent.
Because of their age. Exacerbated by the neutering, and reinforced by your efforts to correct and control their behaviors. Everything you’ve been told to do to your dogs has contributed to this problem. Have you taken them to any training classes? Those too, cause this and other kinds of behavior problems. > It will usually start as a game of tug-o-war
No problem. Let them play till they get too excited, and interrupt their play at that point just before they would ordinarily get out of control. Use the distraction and praise techniques as instructed in your FREE copy of my FREE Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual available for FREE at http://www.doggydoright.com > or argument over a certain toy
Pay attention, do not get personally involved, and rely on distraction and praise techniques to extinguish any inappropriate behaivors without playing favorites or chastizing either of them. > and before you know it they are at each other’s throats, literally.
Break their activity using distraction and praise techniques and you’ll soon have that under control. > They’re wrestling across the room, actually knocking things over, very
vicious. Yes, but that only happens when they get to playing too rough or when they get jealous, or whenever you scold one of them, gives the other cause to become aggressive, taking your side against the other who offended you. NO SCOLDING. > We have to physically pull them apart, sometimes > actually prying their jaws apart to get them to let go.
yeah. I hate dog fighting. Follow the techniques I teach and you’ll solve their aggression in a couple days, EZ. > There is usually blood, sometimes a lot, and even after we pull them apart > we have to keep them separated. An hour later they’re best friends again.
You’re lucky. That might change one day, so better get started fixing this problem according to your FREE copy of my FREE Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual available for FREE at http://www.doggydoright.com > They are normally extremely gentle and loving and have never showed any violent > behavior to any other animal (except the occasional bird or squirrel) or
person. No problem. A few minutes of studying my manual and you’ll be good as new. > It seems to me they’re finally trying to establish the pecking > order and determine who is the alpha dog,
Forget about alpha. That’s bullshit. > and has occurred to me that one of these days we’ll just have to let them
fight it out. That’d be dangerous and probably wouldn’t work. > Do we?
I’m sure some of our dog lovers would recommend that, but I have effective non force, non confrontational methods that’ll rehabilitate all behaivor problems in a few minutes over a couple of days. > Will one eventually submit?
I wouldn’t bet on it. And forget about ’submit.’ Submit only means we’re afraid. Fear is what causes aggression. > They way they attach to each other’s throat makes me > think it might be a death match,
I’d bet on it. > or at the very least end up with one seriously injured.
Could easily lose both at once. > Anyone have any suggestions?
Yup. You see all the posters tellin you to killfile Jerry? They’re the ones who are lying about their expertise. They hurt and kill dogs. Our "experts" will tell you to lock them in crates, jerk and choke and shock and spray aversives on them to make them friendly. > Thanks,
Remember. Everything you do to enforce control, is being copied by your dogs, and used on each other and other family members and visitors. > Travis
I see you’re from a university? Our professor of anal-ytic behavior from the UofWi professor "scruff shake and scream NO into its face for 5 seconds" dermer recommends you killfile Jerry. He also recommends you killfile Marilyn, a trainer from UK with over thirty years experience training family dogs, for reporting my Surrogate Toy Separation Anxiety Technique CURED a seriously destructive SA dog the first time they tried it. Seems our professor scruff shake was havin a good time ridiculing my Surrogate Toy Technique as being ineffective and stupid in his "discussions" with our resident SADIST sindy "don’t let the dog SCREAM" mooreon of our illustrious faqs page at k9 web. Here’s a few quotes from some of our "experts" here. You’ll notice they all deny what they do and teach, and they’ll all tell you Jerry’s a liar and a fraud and they’ll tell you Jerry’s successful students are liars, paid shills for Jerry, and animal fuckers. Sometimes into every life a little PAIN must fall: "Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens, But You’ll Get Over It." mike duforth, author: "Courteous Canine." "Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is something you twisted out of context, because you are full of bizarro manure."
>Di, > I don’t believe you mentioned a particular kind of training. If you > are interested in training retrieval behavior than do consider > our own Amy Dahl’s: > The 10-Minute Retriever : How to Make a Well-Mannered, Obedient and > Enthusiastic Gun Dog in 10 Minutes a Day > by John I. Dahl, Amy Dahl
You failed to mention your pals the dahls are proven liars and dog abusers, professor "SCRUFF SHAKE:" "I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A Dog I Do Not Believe There Is A Single Circumstance Ever, Where Slapping A Dog Is Anything But Destructive," "I don’t see why anyone would want to choke or beat a dog, or how any trainer could possibly get a good working dog by making them unhapper, fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying frosty dahl who continues: > just $17.95 at Amazon.com. > (Also, it is best to killfile posts from the few regulars here who > are either ill-tempered, ill-mannered, or just plain ill.) > –Marshall
amy lying frosty dahl continues: "On the other extreme, the really hard dogs we have trained require much more frequent and heavy application of pressure (PAIN j.h.) to get the job done, This is continued resistance to your increasing authority, and the job is not done until it is overcome Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch You can press the dog’s ear with a shotshell instead of your thumb even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that Make the dog’s need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting your will fades in importance. CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready Right Hand, As it catches on, try using the stick and no ear pinch. When the dog is digging out to beat the stick and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch, you are finished This is continued resistance to your increasing authority, and the job is not done until it is overcome" If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin, say "No! Hold!" (stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided it isn’t worth it)" lying frosty dahl. "Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap," professora gingold. > > Jerome Bigge writes: > > I do know that hitting, hurting your dog will often make the > > dog either aggressive or a fear biter, neither of which we
> > > want to do. > And neither does anyone else, Jerome. No matter what Jerry Howe > states. > –Matt. Rocky’s a Dog. > You’re scary Marilyn. > Marilyn must be quite a disturbed individual. I feel very sorry > for her and her family. > BUT, giving you the benefit of the doubt, please provide a quote > (an original quote, not from one of Jerry Howe’s heavily edited > diatribes) that shows a regular poster promoting > or using an abusive form of training. > –Matt. Rocky’s a Dog.
writes: > -snip headers etc. > Yes. you’re right, I really should find the book.. they don’t have these > books in the local pet stores I frequent, where do you find Koehler? >I got a nice large print copy from Amazon.com >Richard
Please try Powell’s Books in Portland Oregon. Their URL is: http://www.powells.com/ Unlike Amazon.com, Powell’s keeps both new and used books on its shelves. You can order books via e-email. Koehler Method Of Dog Training by Koehler, W R Published by HOWELL BOOK HOUSE (0876056575,
… read more »
Response:
> Anyone have any suggestions? > Thanks, > Travis
You want to learn to control your dog without playing policeman, well, that’s my specialty. My Disciple Paul explains HOWE distraction and praise works. He posted in response to alikat (roo) and ed w of petloss dot CON and professor lying doc dermer telling folks like you not to trust the information in your FREE copy of my FREE Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual available for FREE at http://www.doggydoright.com Our dog lovers lie about my methods because if non force methods work as well as I say they do, that means they jerk and choke and shock and kill their dogs ONLY because THEY WANT TO… or because they don’t have the intellect to outwit the cunning of the domestic puppy dog. Heres Disciple Paul discusses eatin garbage, but you can substitute fighting or barking or chewin, anything at all, just follow the instructions and ask Jerry if you need help. It’s all FREE:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Bollocks, the manual has no dangerous suggestions at > all, people who find the manual useful are those that > don’t need to control a dog to satisfy their own ego > but simply want a well behaved dog that is easy to > live with. I would suggest the people who follow the > advice in his manual are people who have already > tried other inefficient methods and are fed up with > the poor results. > The more I think about the methods he suggests the > more sense it makes, the biggest problem is people > believe they have to be in control of the dog, tell it > whats right and wrong, dogs don’t understand > our values and I don’t believe they are capable of > understanding them either, so to train them we use > methods they understand. That means abstract > training, doing sometimes what appears to > almost be the opposite of what makes sense to us. > If you are purely result orientated then you will not > find Jerry’s manual much use, if you love your dogs > and love to work WITH them then his manual is > your dream come true. Distraction and praise works > with any dog, when you sit back and really think about > it, it’s very obvious why. > When a dog is properly distracted (and praised) of a > particular behaviour then that behaviour very quickly > becomes unfulfilling so the dog will no longer have any > interest in pursuing it, whether we are about or not, > thats the key to stopping garbage can raids and food > stealing etc etc, no force, no bad dog, just distracting it > in an appropriate manner that it no longer wishes to > pursue that behaviour. > Better than hiding the garbage can eh? > Paul Chris Williams writes:
"The FREE Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual I do find valuable. Much of it I recognize as what I’ve always done without thinking of it as "training". New stuff, I’ve used. His anchoring technique erased the last of Mac’s fireworks trauma."
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring. > Two dogs, two collars We now have one dog and no > collars. > Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want to > come back in the yard and would run for days. The > last time, Peach didn’t come back home. > I used the Wit’s End Training Manual to learn how to > train my dog. She is now border trained. A few > minutes each day reinforces her desire to stay in the > yard. > She no longer runs out into the road, I can stop her > from chasing cats and she no longer cringes when we > walk around the yard. > I can not say loud or long enough how much I hate the > e-fence and its collars. If you can’t get a regular fence > then you need to train your dog. I will never rely on an > electronic collar to keep my dog in our yard again. > The price was too high:-( > ~misty
> I haven’t quite finished reading the FREE Wits’ End > Dog Training Method manual, but it already worked > miracles with our three dogs > The barking at the door has diminished so much that, > well, frankly, we’re stunned. > Anyway, your approach is amazing. > Melisand
Hi, Jerry. I’m not sure that I’m a 100% convert, or that I agree with (or even understand) 100% of what you say in this manual … BUT … we had "come" down pat in a few reps and you could have knocked me down when I tried the exercise with "drop" and, after a few reps in different spots Darwin practically *threw* the rubber ball at my feet on command. He’s still not perfect (just a pup, after all, and he’s stubborn enough to want to push and test me a little bit more). For what it’s worth, I can see (as no doubt you have) how your usenet manner is likely to rankle a few folks, but that woman who advocates ear pulling and beating with sticks deserves everything she gets. Even if that was the only method that would work, I’d live with my dog not fetching rather than do any of that. (Darwin fetches enthusiastically and instinctively, tho’). Best, ben
Re: Barking Deterrants Needed… Hi. Please understand that I do not know Jerry and have spoken with him briefly once by email. I have no stake or interest in the success of his business. I simply want to thank him publicly for one of his tips, with regards to separation anxiety. I thought it seemed far fetched to praise a stuffed animal and then say good bye to my own dog, but I am usually a very open minded person, so I tried it. Well, lo and behold- the damn trick worked! I think Jerry has some intriguing techniques, and personally I think everyone who constantly criticizes him is not understanding his logic. Thank you Jerry! Jeremy writes:
"A customer recently purchased a Shiba Inu and I suspect she may be in for a wild ride. This is a breed that I suspect may respond particularly well to mutual respect style training. The alpha complex (as I now call it) is likely to really provoke the dog’s naturally competitive nature. Thanks 1000 times for opening my eyes and don’t let those assholes get you down. I can’t be the only person that sees the sense in your methods. I’m in Windsor, Ontario, Canada and pass your info to anyone it might help" Thanks, Jeremy. message – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I read up on rotties, pitbulls, etc., and quite a bit > of the literature suggested I needed to assert my > dominance and "make the dog earn everything it gets." > I tried this once or twice, just by taking a stern tone > of voice, and the results were terrible. > The pup got scared and just wanted to stay away from > me. That’s why I support Jerry Howe and his FREE > Wits’ End Dog Training manual — that and the fact > that Jerry is an all-around great guy. > The core takeaway I got from Jerry’s manual is this: > make yourself the center of your puppy’s world – > – his personal Lord Jesus. Never give him a reason > to fear you or think you’re angry. Love the heck > out of him, and you’ll end up with a great dog. > This has truly worked with my puppy. She’ll do > anything I want her to, if she understands, because > she trusts me 100 percent, and nothing is more > important in her world than her relationship > with me. http://www.geocities.com/viscouspuppy > Charlie
Doggy Do Right and Jerry Howe I just recently looked at this newsgroup and I found it incredible. I do have a Doggy Do Right and have had it for about one year. It truly does work – at least on my Dobe, Chelsea. Chelsea was the unhappy recipient of several failed attempts at obedience training, both in a "class" environment and with a personal trainer. She is very high spirited and strong and, unfortunately, spoiled, since we are an older couple who doted on our dog. We were lucky enough to find Jerry Howe and to not only buy a Doggy Do Right, but to also have him personally work with Chelsea. His methods are wonderful and effective. Chelsea is not a dog that you will bully, and I wouldn’t dream of hurting her. After Jerry spent time with her, she no longer jumped on furniture, ate food off the counter, pulled me incessantly on the leash. She is calmer and we are all happier. Well, it is a very long story and I won’t bore you with all the details, but suffice it to say that Jerry Howe saved the day for our dog and for us. Marge Hoffman. (REWARD PAID BY DW.) P.S. You can send me the reward money, but I won’t sell you my DDR! > Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry. > He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and > watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth! > Out of these MILLIONS, I’ve only seen 2 naive childs > come forward and actually believe in his training
manual. Robert Crim writes:
I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs since I freely admit to having read and, I hope, understood enough of the manual and it’s counterparts by John Fisher and the posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe and use it. This naive child would like to say thank you to both Jerry and Marilyn for putting up with a constant barrage of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly adult dog lovers. The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the nagging idea that if people like them had been posting earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he gasped his last gasp. To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog into good behavior. Naive is believing that people that hide behind fake names are more honest than people that use their real names. Naive is thinking that dilettante dog breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey … read more »
Response:
>Two sister cats that were scared in the garden have started to fight with >each other. They have lived happily with each other for three years until >now. >How can we stop them?
Don’t. Trim their claws if you’re really woried, but otherwise, they’ll sort things out on their own.
Response:
I disagree. Most animal behaviourists don’t recommend cats "sorting things out" on their own. The cats should be seperated and introduced like they are new cats. Sounds like a case of redirected aggression to me. One cat got traumatized and it’s taking it out on the other cat because it was there at the time. They should be re-introduced from scratch.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Two sister cats that were scared in the garden have started to fight with >each other. They have lived happily with each other for three years until >now. >How can we stop them? > Don’t. Trim their claws if you’re really woried, but otherwise, they’ll > sort things out on their own.
Response:
I have a cat that’s almost two years old and continuosly attacks one of our other cats (we have four). The weird thing is she gets along fine with two of the other three…on male and one female (both long haired) but is always starting and finishing fights with the other female (short haired). The cat with the problem is also a short haired female. Does the length of the coats have anything to do with this? How can I keep her from attacking the other short hair? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated Thanks ahead of time:-)
Response:
are they spayed?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I have a cat that’s almost two years old and continuosly attacks one of our >other cats (we have four). The weird thing is she gets along fine with two of >the other three…on male and one female (both long haired) but is always >starting and finishing fights with the other female (short haired). The cat >with the problem is also a short haired female. Does the length of the coats >have anything to do with this? How can I keep her from attacking the other >short hair? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated > Thanks ahead of time:-)
Response:
yes, all of the cats are fixed and declawed
Response:
does it happen all the time or does it come in waves.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->yes, all of the cats are fixed and declawed
Response:
>Two sister cats that were scared in the garden have started to fight with >each other. They have lived happily with each other for three years until >now. >How can we stop them?
Don’t. Trim their claws if you’re really woried, but otherwise, they’ll sort things out on their own.
Response:
I disagree. Most animal behaviourists don’t recommend cats "sorting things out" on their own. The cats should be seperated and introduced like they are new cats. Sounds like a case of redirected aggression to me. One cat got traumatized and it’s taking it out on the other cat because it was there at the time. They should be re-introduced from scratch.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Two sister cats that were scared in the garden have started to fight with >each other. They have lived happily with each other for three years until >now. >How can we stop them? > Don’t. Trim their claws if you’re really woried, but otherwise, they’ll > sort things out on their own.
Response:
I have a cat that’s almost two years old and continuosly attacks one of our other cats (we have four). The weird thing is she gets along fine with two of the other three…on male and one female (both long haired) but is always starting and finishing fights with the other female (short haired). The cat with the problem is also a short haired female. Does the length of the coats have anything to do with this? How can I keep her from attacking the other short hair? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated Thanks ahead of time:-)
Response:
are they spayed?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I have a cat that’s almost two years old and continuosly attacks one of our >other cats (we have four). The weird thing is she gets along fine with two of >the other three…on male and one female (both long haired) but is always >starting and finishing fights with the other female (short haired). The cat >with the problem is also a short haired female. Does the length of the coats >have anything to do with this? How can I keep her from attacking the other >short hair? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated > Thanks ahead of time:-)
Response:
yes, all of the cats are fixed and declawed
Response:
does it happen all the time or does it come in waves.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->yes, all of the cats are fixed and declawed
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