Pit Bulls! Vicious? Ha!!!!
Question:
> Richard Hurwitz writes: > :What should be the behavior characteristics > 
f the ideal human that were breeding? > :Hmmm. One could ask that about dogs too, > :right? > Not if we have any sense. At some point in our > lives, adult humans are supposed to be on their > own within society. Dogs aren’t. They are supposed > to remain supervised.
True > But if you want to talk about social animals in > the wild, their behavior ranges from the highly > cooperative to the murderous.
I was thinking more of domestic dogs in regular contact with humans. If I could breed dogs, I’d breed dogs for strength, temperament (whatever that means), longevity, and, well, OK, intelligence. I’d breed to heighten the high canine senses that we humans are incapable of, unless, of course, hypothetically, we’ve succeeded in breeding a better human. Richard – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> JohnR > Pit Bull Libertarian > Never sneer at the power of a little > pink squeaky toy!
Response:
Richard Hurwitz: :I was thinking more of domestic dogs :in regular contact with humans. If I could :breed dogs, I’d breed dogs for strength, :temperament (whatever that means), :longevity, and, well, OK, intelligence. I’d :breed to heighten the high canine senses :that we humans are incapableof, unless, f course, hypothetically, we’ve succeeded :in breeding a better human. Okay. I’m not sure how this hooks up with this thread, but it sounds fine to me as a breeding goal. JohnR Pit Bull Libertarian Never sneer at the power of a little pink squeaky toy!
Response:
BD writes:
:And I’d have to assume that pitbulls :were bred with the fight/kill :instinct.. Not just the body… They were bred for pit fighting, yes. Dogs differ re how far back in the pedigree you have to go to find real pit dogs, and even real pit dogs differ as to how much they want to start fights, what sorts of challenges they accept vs blow off as too silly to worry about, etc. But the biggest danger with Pit Bulls vis-a-vis other dogs (though there are exceptions here as well, but you got a be careful not to ASSUME a given dog is an exception) is that they typically won’t break out of fight mode on their own. That is, even those who aren’t looking for fights or accepting every silly challenge to fight will, as a rule, fight for keeps once they are engaged. Now, YOUR situation, BD, is muddied a bit by the fact that your dogs were crosses, and by the fact that the attack on your one dog by several has more than a whiff of pack-mentality problems associated with it. That really is NOT the typical problem with Pit Bulls, who are much more likely to want to fight only each other than they are to join forces against others. JohnR Pit Bull Libertarian Never sneer at the power of a little pink squeaky toy!
Response:
Okay-Humility–that’s a good characteristic. Richard – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Okay, here’s a highly hypothetical question: If you were breeding > people instead of dogs, which behavioral characteristics would you > breed for? It’s not a mean question. What characteristics would make > me,you, and the rest of the breed better and happier? I’m not talking > about appearances-you can bid on models’ eggs these days anyhow. I’m > not talking about intelligence, either. What should be the behavior > characteristics of the ideal human that were breeding? > I think more people who recognize my Divine Right to be Queen of All I > Survey would be a good start. > And if they show an aptitude for making french pastry, all the better. > HTH! > –Terri & Harlan > — > I don’t give references, and I > don’t offer credentials. > –Jerry "The Baloney King" Howe 8/19/99 > Before you buy.
Response:
m?… >And I’d have to assume that pitbulls were bred with the fight/kill >instinct.. Not just the body…
And you’d be ASSuming completely incorrectly , along with of course demonstrating quite amply ( once again) your extreme ignorance of the breed and what they were *actually* bred for. The concept of gameness has little to do with " fight/kill". Indeed gameness is more the perseverance to keep on in the face of impossible odds and is what *every* Terrier breed was once bred for and is what *ALL* working Terriers are still bred for. It also manifests itself in many other ways in a wide variety of other breeds , as I’ve stated many times the Kelpie or McNab which is still working with you at the end of a drizzly just above barely above freezing spring lambing or calving day the sighthound that will run until it’s heart stops rather than quit , the 12 lb Fells terrier that will go down a hole after a Badger twice it’s size , the Walker that will trail forever until its pads literally fall off rather than give up a cold scent the Karelian that will bay a bear and stay ther for days , the Blackmouth that will unfailing go after and attempt to catch a hog that is 4 or 5 times it’s size , the trained Police dog that will go quite literally into the jaws of death against multiple assailants , the Lab or Chessie that *WILL* at all cost to itself bring back that duck or goose no matter what the conditions , the GSP that WILL point that Pheasant Quail or Grouse until you finally get it through your thick head that there IS a bird there. *Every* single one of the above exhibits the concept of gameness in one way or another , as do almost all task-bred dogs to some degree , some individuals more some individuals less. Dogs in general are NOT " little fur people" no matter how much you might wish them to be and it’s more than a little mendacious and indeed hypocritical for you to single a specific breed for the continual criticism you deliver of it while you remain deplorably ill-informed about said specific breed.
Response:
Melissa writes:
:Yes, pitbulls were "bred" to fight, but I :really doubt that any of them did it :because they liked it. Boy, are you wrong. :Have you seen WHite Fang (the movie)? :Most fighting dogs were treated like that. Ummm, it’s generally a BAD idea to do your research by watching movies, especially movies as full of sensational nonsense as ‘White Fang’. 
o you blame them for wanting to fight?? Why would a dog (or, egads, a wolf) who is taunted and beaten and teased respond by fighting another dog? And how do you imagine that those abusive owners portrayed in that wretched movie, or the wretched book it was based on (both of which horribly misportrayed wolves as well), suddenly managed to handle White Fang in the pit without any problems? Doesn’t take a genius to figure out that this movie couldn’t possibly be getting things right. The idea that only abused dogs will fight other dogs has caused many people to step straight into serious trouble with good dogs of a breed they don’t understand, or apparently want to understand. JohnR Pit Bull Libertarian Never sneer at the power of a little pink squeaky toy!
Response:
: used as game dogs for fighting. I’ve never personally known a bad pit : bull that was raised in a loving, healthy environment, but I have known : little dogs (american eskimos, cockers, shelties, even jack russels) who : were raised with all the love a person can give and turned out nasty. Yeah…Beattie’s a Blue Heeler/Cocker Spaniel X. She came from a family that bred working Blue Heelers for good temperaments (as they have a slightly bad rep in some circles) and show-standard Golden Cockers. They were all kept behind 7-ft coyclone fencing, but someone decided that they were _obviously_ the sheep-killers in the district, and threw baits over the fence. The breeders lost heart – the result, blue-heeler/cocker mixes…sounds funny, I know, but she really is the best looking/natured/mannered dog I know. Not that I’m biased. ) And she’s never bitten a person, and only a dog in self-defense (when she was attacked by a Corgi )). Maybe breeds like Cockers bite ‘cos they are fashionable every so often, and are bought by people who want a "pretty" dog, and have no idea what the flip they’re doing. My dog knows not to bite people, and who the boss is (my mother *grin*)…mind you, lift a hand near her head, and she thinks it’s a game. "Hand? Fun! *licklicklick*" Sorry to ramble, but I’ve lived away from my special girl for far too long, and I miss her so much. I see her and my mother about once every two years…and I only cry over the dog when I go..:o) Shiv — ~*~ "Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." - Rev. Pat Robertson
Response:
Ther are more reported attacks by german shepards (herding dogs) and rotweillers (working dogs) than by pitbulls every year. Cocker Spanials have the highest bite-rate of any dog to date. I.e. Your chances of being bitten by a cocker spanial is better than your chances of being bitten by ANY OTHER DOG BREED. Yes, pitbulls were "bred" to fight, but I really doubt that any of them did it because they liked it. Have you seen WHite Fang (the movie)? Most fighting dogs were treated like that. Do you blame them for wanting to fight?? Seriously, the world has a biased view of them because they were ONCE used as game dogs for fighting. I’ve never personally known a bad pit bull that was raised in a loving, healthy environment, but I have known little dogs (american eskimos, cockers, shelties, even jack russels) who were raised with all the love a person can give and turned out nasty. Just because their jaws are smaller and their teeth are shorter, they’re easier to pull off of other dogs and thus leave less damage. Pit bulls are great dogs. Melissa On Tue, 26 Oct – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Dunno.. We had 3 dogs, which were part pitbul and part german-shephard > (which, as far as I know, are very gentle dogs).. We’d raised the mom from a > pup, and she was always one of the best dogs we’d ever had. Never met a > nicer one. And it was the same with the three pups.. Till one day they just > happen to get ahold of one of our other dogs (one of those little > long-haired white Alaskan things, but I can’t recall what they’re called) > and pretty much ripped her apart and had to be beat with boards to get ‘em > off what was left of her (they were walking-muscles.. no amount of pulling > or yelling at ‘em did any good). She lived the other half of her 11yr after > that, but it sure took a lot of stitches. > Who knows.. ANY dog may instantly become vicious (however that’s spelled) > killers, I guess, but…… > Those things were bred for such, weren’t they?… > I mean.. A poisonous snake may never bite you if raised from the egg, but > I’d sure the **** not want any part of it, JUST IN CASE… > i’m glad u had a wonderfull- encounter with the apbt, i wish > the apbt haters would understand that all pitbull’s is not > aggressive toward people.
Love is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Keep smiling!!
Response:
Shiv writes:
:The point of my story was that Pit :Bulls aren’t the vicious killers I’d :been led to believe by media-hype. :Also, that they were incredibly cute ). :Sorry to cause trouble. You didn;t cause any trouble. Pit Bulls – and AmStaffs and Bully Breeds in general – tend to be good to great with humans. They can, however, be problematic to horrible with other dogs, and one has to be careful how one keeps them around other dogs, and if one does keep them, one had better know a better way of stopping a dog fight than beating dogs with boards. (And I say all this as someone who has been pretty damn liberal about adding Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes to his pack. But you got to know where the limits are, and so must the dogs. And if there is any concern that they don’t, then they must be kept separated.) But thanks again for your original post. A Pit Bull can be a real buddy. JohnR Pit Bull Libertarian Never sneer at the power of a little pink squeaky toy!
Response:
>Hey, guys…In my story, I was talking about two dogs, on leads, >supervised. They were EXCEEDINGLY people-friendly.
They’re quite typically extremely people friendly. I did not see them with >other dogs, or unsupervised.
They are also quite often aggressive towards other dogs. People tie dogs unsupervised outside this >paricular shop all the time, this guy didn’t.
A responsible owner. Nice to hear an example of that. >The point of my story was that Pit Bulls aren’t the vicious killers I’d >been led to believe by media-hype. Also, that they were incredibly cute >:o).
And the above is also quite typical. >Sorry to cause trouble.
You didn’t , one of the resident rabidly anti-APBT types just used your post as a springboard from which to engage in nonsensical diatribe , and of course as usual I rebutted him . Same song different stage ‘eh.
Response:
ing.net>: Organization: The University of Western Australia
:>I *guess* so.. I’ve never had any other dogs try to kill one another when :>left unsupervised, dude… :> : You’re stupid enough to leave dogs unsupervised? Dude. Hey, guys…In my story, I was talking about two dogs, on leads, supervised. They were EXCEEDINGLY people-friendly. I did not see them with other dogs, or unsupervised. People tie dogs unsupervised outside this paricular shop all the time, this guy didn’t. The point of my story was that Pit Bulls aren’t the vicious killers I’d been led to believe by media-hype. Also, that they were incredibly cute ). Sorry to cause trouble. Shiv — ~*~ "Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." - Rev. Pat Robertson
Response:
: It’s was nice to read your story. They are so cute when they are puppies : (you have to see Busters baby pictures– www.therescue.com/buster ). The : older he gets the cuter he gets. Very, very cute pics…but now I’m really really confused. Your page refers to Buster as an American Staffordshire Terrier, or Pit Bull. I know a few people with Staffies, and they were very different to the two dogs this guy had on leads. Also, I’ve never heard a Staffy referred to as a Pit Bull before, in Australia (where I live, natch). I was under the impression that they were two different breeds. Help me out here! Shiv — ~*~ "Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." - Rev. Pat Robertson
Response:
BD writes:
:It’s funny how you delete the part f the quote that you referenced… :I never said that they tore any dog in :half, and you know it. I think you’re :intelligent enough to realize what "pretty :much tore in half" means… Yes, it means they basically tore the dog in half, which they apparently didn’t. :We were three kids, which’s why 3 of :the pups were kept, and played with ‘em :daily for hrs. They had a normal backyard :with normal doghouse, etc. They were :nothing more/less than very friendly :family dogs.. But one day, they just :happened to become instant-killers. I spend a lot of time with Pablo and the others in the pack, and they spend a lot of time together. But Pablo doesn’t run with the pack unsupervised. JohnR Pit Bull Libertarian Never sneer at the power of a little pink squeaky toy!
Response:
Didn’t we just have someone come on in the last week or so, and tell about left UNSUPERVISED?? Lois E. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I *guess* so.. I’ve never had any other dogs try to kill one another when > left unsupervised, dude…
Response:
>I *guess* so.. I’ve never had any other dogs try to kill one another when >left unsupervised, dude…
You’re stupid enough to leave dogs unsupervised? Dude. >And there’s a BIG difference between a dog showing aggression toward >another, or even playing rough with it’s yard-mates, and trying to KILL >another dog (which had no bad temper at all) that it had been raised with.
And you show how little you know of aggression. >You raise dogs that have to be kept chained/locked up when you’re not around >and require the use of parting-sticks. If I want that, I’ll get me a wild >animal to care for…
You don’t have a freaking clue as to what I raise , and by claiming that such behavior as the above is the province of a single breed you highlight how very little you know of canines in general. And you can stop with your bullshit UTTER and complete STUPIDTY in reference to a parting stick and it’s use. It’s merely a tool for breaking up a dogfight quickly and with a minimum of damage to the participants. And don’t even bother yapping about it being breed specific ’cause it’s not. I’ve used it on many other breeds besides bulldogs. And if you think you have any say whatsoever on what breed of fog I choose to own then think again. You don’t.
Response:
Richard Hurwitz writes:
:What should be the behavior characteristics f the ideal human that were breeding? :Hmmm. One could ask that about dogs too, :right? Not if we have any sense. At some point in our lives, adult humans are supposed to be on their own within society. Dogs aren’t. They are supposed to remain supervised. But if you want to talk about social animals in the wild, their behavior ranges from the highly cooperative to the murderous. JohnR Pit Bull Libertarian Never sneer at the power of a little pink squeaky toy!
Response:
> Okay, here’s a highly hypothetical question: If you were breeding > people instead of dogs, which behavioral characteristics would you > breed for? It’s not a mean question. What characteristics would make > me,you, and the rest of the breed better and happier? I’m not talking > about appearances-you can bid on models’ eggs these days anyhow. I’m > not talking about intelligence, either. What should be the behavior > characteristics of the ideal human that were breeding?
I think more people who recognize my Divine Right to be Queen of All I Survey would be a good start. And if they show an aptitude for making french pastry, all the better. HTH! –Terri & Harlan — I don’t give references, and I don’t offer credentials. –Jerry "The Baloney King" Howe 8/19/99 Before you buy.
Response:
Okay, here’s a highly hypothetical question: If you were breeding people instead of dogs, which behavioral characteristics would you breed for? It’s not a mean question. What characteristics would make me, you, and the rest of the breed better and happier? I’m not talking about appearances-you can bid on models’ eggs these days anyhow. I’m not talking about intelligence, either. What should be the behavior characteristics of the ideal human that were breeding? Hmmm. One could ask that about dogs too, right? Richard – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > BD writes: > :Who knows.. ANY dog may instantly > :become vicious (however that’s spelled) > :killers, I guess, but…… > Well, you bred a bunch of Pit mutts, > kept them with with other dogs, knew > so little about how to handle the breed > that you "hit them with boards" to get > them off that they somehow managed > to tear in half w/o killing (nice hype > there) and cite this dog aggression > incident in response to a people- > friendliness post, which suggests > that you don’t even have the basics > down. I guess that makes you the > prototypical ignorant owner. > JohnR > Pit Bull Libertarian > Never sneer at the power of a little > pink squeaky toy!
Response:
>Dunno.. We had 3 dogs, which were part pitbul and part german-shephard >((one of those little >long-haired white Alaskan things,
So in other words *YOU* screwed up by leaving them together unsupervised. but I can’t recall what they’re called) >and pretty much ripped her apart and had to be beat with boards to get ‘em >off what was left of her (they were walking-muscles.. no amount of pulling >or yelling at ‘em did any good).
So in other word you were too damn irresponsible to educate yourself as to the nature and use of a parting stick. She lived the other half of her 11yr after >that, but it sure took a lot of stitches. >Who knows.. ANY dog may instantly become vicious (however that’s spelled) >killers,
Bullshit. And do you define " vicious" as any dog which shows aggression towards another dog or animal? I guess, but…… >Those things were bred for such, weren’t they?… >I mean.. A poisonous snake may never bite you if raised from the egg, but >I’d sure the **** not want any part of it, JUST IN CASE…
Whatever. The analogy doesn’t fit in the slightest and you don’t have a freaking clue what you’re yapping about. The incident above was manufactured out of whole cloth entirely and completely by the owner of said dogs. YOU.
Response:
My fiancee and I went down to our local shops, being arrested by the sight of the cutest puppy we’d ever seen hopping around his owner and what appeared to be his mummy…I’m a sucker, so we went over, asked the man if his dogs were friendly…stupid question, as they were both practically hanging themselves trying to wag and lick me to death…he said I was welcome to pat them, so I crouched down trustingly (*grin*), and proceeded to be washed all over by doggy tongues, both pup and Mum wagging their back ends off… Anyway, the most vicious act I saw either of them do was when the pup decided his mum’s leg was a chew toy. I’d never seen a dog like this before, so I asked the human what it was.."Pit Bull." Please forgive me for not knowing one when I see one, but they’re not common in my area. I was taken aback, because this breed’s got such a nasty rep…undeservedly, as I see! And please don’t be offended, but Pit Bull owners and devotees seem to be just a wee bit defensive..:o) Anyway, it was cute. Pit bull or not, it was the nicest doggy encounter I’ve had in a while! Shiv — ~*~ "Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." - Rev. Pat Robertson
Response:
Thanks for the nice story, Shiv. JohnR Pit Bull Libertarian Never sneer at the power of a little pink squeaky toy!
Response:
i’m glad u had a wonderfull- encounter with the apbt, i wish the apbt haters would understand that all pitbull’s is not aggressive toward people. ”
Response:
It’s was nice to read your story. They are so cute when they are puppies (you have to see Busters baby pictures– www.therescue.com/buster ). The older he gets the cuter he gets. Lisa, Buster & Benny
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My fiancee and I went down to our local shops, being arrested by the sight > of the cutest puppy we’d ever seen hopping around his owner and what > appeared to be his mummy…I’m a sucker, so we went over, asked the man if > his dogs were friendly…stupid question, as they were both practically > hanging themselves trying to wag and lick me to death…he said I was > welcome to pat them, so I crouched down trustingly (*grin*), and proceeded > to be washed all over by doggy tongues, both pup and Mum wagging their > back ends off… > Anyway, the most vicious act I saw either of them do was when the pup > decided his mum’s leg was a chew toy. I’d never seen a dog like this > before, so I asked the human what it was.."Pit Bull." Please forgive me > for not knowing one when I see one, but they’re not common in my area. I > was taken aback, because this breed’s got such a nasty rep…undeservedly, > as I see! And please don’t be offended, but Pit Bull owners and devotees > seem to be just a wee bit defensive..:o) > Anyway, it was cute. Pit bull or not, it was the nicest doggy encounter > I’ve had in a while! > Shiv > — > ~*~ > "Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, > practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." > - Rev. Pat Robertson
Response:
BD writes:
:Who knows.. ANY dog may instantly :become vicious (however that’s spelled) :killers, I guess, but…… Well, you bred a bunch of Pit mutts, kept them with with other dogs, knew so little about how to handle the breed that you "hit them with boards" to get them off that they somehow managed to tear in half w/o killing (nice hype there) and cite this dog aggression incident in response to a people- friendliness post, which suggests that you don’t even have the basics down. I guess that makes you the prototypical ignorant owner. JohnR Pit Bull Libertarian Never sneer at the power of a little pink squeaky toy!
Response:
>She was still a whole dog, but looked like some sort of science-experiment. >Luckily, the skin was still there to be put back on. They hadn’t gotten >quite that far.
Taking the opportunity for more sensationalistic hyperbole are ya? It figures. >And the rest of it, well.. You sure like story-telling, doncha? >We were three kids, which’s why 3 of the pups were kept, and played with ‘em >daily for hrs. >They had a normal backyard with normal doghouse, etc. >They were nothing more/less than very friendly family dogs.. >But one day, they just happened to become instant-killers.
Bullshit. As John stated *you* are/were the very prototype of the airheaded owner. And quite typical of same you use said incident as a blanket indictment of a whole breed rather than as an example of your own stupidity.
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